KymcoForum.com
Scooters - 125 to 300 => People 250 => Topic started by: hypophthalmus on June 21, 2014, 08:59:46 PM
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When I take my People 250 at high speeds, it feels kind of shaky, like I'm being oscillated side to side, and perhaps like my handlebars are oscillating a bit. This is at around 60-75mph on what I believe to be chip seal.
Is this normal? Is there anything I might want to check?
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Of course the obvious... Steering head assemble, fork braces, wheel bearings. Lock up the front brake, and try to force movement in anything up there
Tire brand, and condition play a HUGE role. Perhaps you are just under inflated.
The scooter should NEVER feel "shaky or "squirley. I would not suggest trying those speeds till you sort it out.
If the bike begins to oscillate you are going for a very different type of ride.
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I'm not sure what to check with the steering head and fork braces. I did what the manual said with turning the steering and compressing the shocks, but I didn't notice anything odd. I don't notice any play in the wheels either. The rear wheel was 1 psi overinflated, the front 1 psi underinflated.
I have noticed that with the rear wheel, it'll be easy to turn, then a bit stiffer, then easy again. It's apparent when the bike is idling on the center stand too, the wheel will vary in speed. Could this be involved?
For some reason the previous owner also replaced the front wheel only and with a different brand. The difference in wear is very apparent. Could that cause this?
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I'm not certain, but it seems like the front tire might have been mounted backwards as well. O_o
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It should feel good with your hands on the bats, but the people 250 and s250 have a very bad issue with speed wobble. Even new ones I've rode if you let go and coast no hands wobble violently after just a second or so no hands. They actually had a recall of the bar ends to put larger ones on (didn't fix the issue tho). Feel the tire surface with your hand for "cupping", that's where the tread is not smooth any more. And make sure your tires are set right 35/30psi. Is there any signs the bike has been in a crash? Bent lever scratched plastics etc. Or have you owned the bike since new.
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Oh Ps your front you're should look "backwards". It's actually the correct direction to sheer rain properly. Look for arrows on the sidewall that way "front rotation" or something of the like.
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As I said, it's within 1psi of what it should be, although what you said is 5 psi too high. No sign of a crash, and the former owner said he never did.
It's unclear if what I was looking at was an arrow, because it'd be a slightly odd looking one. But I did find a picture with the tires mounted opposite of mine. I wouldn't think that'd make a different, but perhaps I shouldn't be too confident in whoever balanced them.
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If it was a balance issue it would be more like a pulse feeling up down bounce. The recommended tire pressure on almost all Kymcos is low unless you weigh less than 150. That bike should be pretty stake at 70-80 indicated mph. How long are your bar ends? Maybe it has the old style, the updated ones are almost two inches long.
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No one caught what he said... The rear wheel is slowing at a point in the rotation... It's a bent rear out put shaft.
You will see a divot in the center of the rear shaft. With the bike on the center stand make some sort of rig to hold a pencil or a nail or whatever pointy thing you can find. Put the point into the little divot, and spin the wheel. If the pionty thing tries to move the shaft is bent, and AT SPEED THAT WILL TOSS THE BIKE AROUND.
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Is that what the manual refers to as the final shaft? I don't see any exposed part to hold a pointy thing against. Unless you mean hold in it that gap to left of the wheel?
Could it be a loose nut or some such thing?
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He means the actual axle shaft aka output shaft. The circle is behind the muffler to the RIGHT of the wheel.
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Oh, so perpendicular to the wheel? I stuck in a bamboo skewer and it seemed to be trying to move not at all.
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I meant to comment on the bar ends as well. Do you mean the chrome ends of the handlebars? If so, they're a bit short of 2.5 inches long.
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Measure those bar ends I'll get back to you
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I don't have any good suggestions, what year is your scooter? I have a 2010 People S 250 and it is smooth all the way up.
Good suggestions above, especially the axle. So many reasons, process of elimination or confining this to the front or back end.
Out of round tire, tire separation, bubble on the tire, balancing of the wheel, warped rotors, bearings in the wheels.
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If the rear wheel is grabing at some point in its rotation... Something is bent/warped/out of alignment back there.
Fix that, and work from there.
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I set up a primitive gauge to measure the runout with the wheel attached. I got consistent results of less than 1mm on both the the side of the wheel and the rotor. Is this telling of anything?
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Take a close up of your tires. Also what brand are they? Like zombie said tires can make s world of difference. How many kms on the scoot? Maybe the PO didn't tighten the shocks or motor mount all the way?
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A close up as in picture? The rear is a Kenda Cruiser ST, the front is a Pirelli Diablo. I think replacing/balancing both tires is a good idea. The back one has a least one spot in the sidewall where there's cracks.
I believe checked the tightness of the rear shocks except for the one blocked by the exhaust the last time I had the plastic off. I can't remember if I checked the engine bolts or not, although I'm not sure why I wouldn't have.
There's nearly 7000km on the scooter.
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Kendas are known to be out of round right from the start. They also are affected by oil or fuel so if it sat on a grease spot for just a few days it will have a soft/swollen spot.
If your tires are questionable I would start there. Being a cheep scooter I would suggest checking every nut/bolt you can find. Parts wear quickly, and once wear begins it snowballs.
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If that's the stock kenda rr tire, 7000km is high for those tires. I bet you anything a nice matched set of high end tires would cure your ailments.
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Thanks for your help. I'll get to replacing the tires, probably with new Pirellis. While I'm at it I can check that everything's tight, and that the bearings aren't worn. Maybe even check the runout a bit more precisely.
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Sounds like a plan...
Please keep us informed as to how it goes.
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How is a scooter supposed to feel at h i g h speeds?
IMHO...pretty damn scary!
There's a reason for that.
Slow down. Get on a slower road.
I have several relatives who drive OTR for a living....they all tell me the same thing:
A scooter has no business being on the interstate highways!
Stig
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Stig,
That seems like a strange sentiment to me. What's the point of even making or buying 250cc or larger scooters just to keep them on slower roads? Do you feel the same about similarly sized conventional motorcycles?
I actually haven't taken mine on an interstate highway though. The normal full access roads here frequently have speed limits as high as 70mph.
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Stig,
What's the point of even making or buying 250cc or larger scooters just to keep them on slower roads? Do you feel the same about similarly sized conventional motorcycles?
Oh, not so strange a sentiment from my perspective.
You see, unless a scooter or a bike is going to be pulling a house trailer or fuel tanker....I've always thought 2 wheeled vehicles with engines bigger than say 250-350 cc's were something of a joke.
Even two-up you can travel comfortably at safe speeds with a bike this size on scenic country roads all over the world.
To propel oneself essentially naked of any real protection into constantly shifting traffic at 70MPH - with 80MPH cars and F-150's closing on you - while perched on a rail seat with your feet in the breeze on 3/4" footpegs.....hoping for the best - and for the good judgement of texters & those with anger issues ....is to display a complete lack of imagination. Like a kid doing 60 at night through a line of parked cars with his lights off. In itself it is not dangerous...but it surely shows a lack of imagination.
Can a big engined Vespa travel on I-275 around Tampa?
Sure.
Should it?
Heck no.
My point is that you do not need a big engined anything....you just want one.
And I, for one, cannot figure out why.
Stig
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That's understandable. Everybody accepts different amounts of risk though. There are plenty of people who might say the same thing of driving a two-wheeled vehicle at all.
The roads I that I drive at these speeds on are quiet, although fast, country roads. One or two lanes, sparse and polite traffic. I've been on plenty of slower roads that are much more dangerous to drive on.
I suppose I thought you were saying that larger scooters are mechanically unsuitable for those speeds.
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Dark Side meetings at the Ramada, Crawfordville. Tues/Thurs. at 9PM sharp.
I love ya Stig. You're the second person here w/ the balls to say it like it is. Anytime I am on a bike on the interstate/55 or above Hwy. I am the guy in the right lane w/ 4 mirrors. and doing 55 no matter what. The only reason I am there is because there is no other way to get where I am going.
A 250cc scooter has as much business on 55+ roads as a steel wheel skate board has in the X-Games. I say it all the time... a 500cc scooter is a 50cc scooter in bigger plastics. My top speed matches all of them.
No offense fellas/gal. It's just MY opinion.
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Probably time to involve a mechanic, I had my people downhill with the wind once and pegged the speedometer over 100 indicated it was smooth as silk, the only time there was any shaking was on a cupped tire at really slow parking lot turning speeds. One of the great things about the People was it's smooth ride at speed it's resistance to induced shake or shudder from uneven pavement or passing tractor trailer's. So please have the scooter checked out it should be smooth at any speed. Jim.
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The older people have a horrible problem with induced shaking. You key go of the handlebars, instant speed wobble in EVERY one I've driven.
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Generally speaking if it wobbles at 60+ and not below its tires, thats on a car, truck, scooter, motorcycle, or mattel hot wheel.
Honestly 250cc is the bare minimum for highway, I have many bikes and I no longer ride anything below 600cc on the highway. With that said though I dont believe you shouldnt be on the highway either. I use to ride my heavily modified ke100s for 45 miles both ways on highway 44 to 270 to 30 here locally on the regular to one of my properties, it was going on 11 years strong. If a 1979 rotary valve 108cc AC enduro can do it safely a new 250cc water cooled scooter sure can. Although, I no longer ride my small bikes due to being blown over a whole lane on my klr250 when a 18 wheeler blew past me doing 80 MPH+ on a 60 MPH road, (idiots cant do the speed limit). After that I vowed to never ride anything under powered. You need that reserve power to pull you out of a head wind.
“Opinions are like nipples, everybody has one. Some have firm points, others are barely discernible through layers, and some are displayed at every opportunity regardless of whether the audience has stated "I am interested in your nipples" or not.â€
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So something I noticed today was that when I compress the front shocks there's a low pitch creak / groan. It sounds like it might be relevant.
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The older people have a horrible problem with induced shaking.
You DO understand that this is a scooter forum , and that a lot of scooter riders are - shall we say, approaching veteran peopledom.
It is more polite to pretend you don't see older people shaking....
So let's not make such a big deal about this and just stick to the scooter'in issues!
s h a k i n STIG
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"Your tired eyes failed to see what your feeble mind failed to comprehend. We are all running a race against time.
Some of us are just closer to the finish line." Nelson Mandella
Shakey old people make me laugh, and it's easy to steal their candy.
Enough political correctness. I ordered a rare burger at my favorite beach front joint, and was informed they are not allowed by law to serve hamburger meat rare.
When some random jackass tells me how to F'n eat... All bets are off.
I love you Stig. You are a very well respected member here, and I for one consider it a privilege to share your company.
Please don't worry about shaky old people. There gonna drop sooner than you can shake a stick. We all will.
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I am not tha t shakky, I am vibrant, 81 and still hanging in there,.
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Check your tires carefully.
I bought a used 2009 SYM HD200 a few months ago. It only had 1800 miles on it looked good overall and the tires still had a lot of tread so I never took a real good look at them.
The scooter ran fine without any problems but when I took it on the freeway, the handling felt a little spooky. It was like the bike would move laterally on it's own without any input from me.
I decided to inspect my tires one day because I was bored and I found that there was a crack that ran parallel with the bead and the crack was around the whole tire, on both sides. My rear tire wasn't as bad but there was a big gouge in the sidewall.
I stopped riding the scooter and promptly ordered new tires and the problem went away.
In hindsight, I can't believe I risked my life like that. My tire could have failed on me at 70 mph.
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I spent good money on great tires cause I don't want to die for a lousey 150.00.
DeeDee, Your candy is safe.
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... I've rode if you let go and coast no hands wobble violently after just a second or so no hands. ...
This is how it is and has always been on my 2005 GV250. I also had the issue but very mild on my 1992 BMW K75s. The solution was to properly shim the forks. That is the only way to eliminate the problem. It is not tire brand, or mixing brands or wear.
The test for fork alignment is simple. Unbolt and remove the front axle. If it is difficult to remove and reinstall the fork tubes are bent slightly. This is how it is on my GV250. The problem cannot be solved like the bmw because there is no way to shim the forks. An adjustable brace would need to be installed to correct the alignment.
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feels kind of shaky, like I'm being oscillated side to side, and perhaps like my handlebars are oscillating a bit. ...
Totally normal. Even my bmw motorcycle did this and it weighed 550 lbs. A windshield and cross winds increase the effect and if you pass a large truck on the highway.
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No one caught what he said... The rear wheel is slowing at a point in the rotation... It's a bent rear out put shaft.
Remove the rear brake caliper and the problem will go away. My scoot does the same thing.
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I don't think removing brakes should be recommended. It could be a warped rotor or a bent output shaft but blowing up the sun so you can sleep during the day is not really a fix.
I respect you Bois, and love how much you help. Perhaps you forgot to post the rest... Check the rotor for run out.
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After much frustration, I'm mostly through with the tire change. I only noticed one thing wrong with it, which is that the front wheel bearing is occasionally slowing / making a pinging sound when you turn it by hand. So I'm thinking that's bad.
I think it's also getting in the way of balancing the front tire. As far as I can tell, the "heavy" spot is changing, I'm guessing related to the bearing as well.
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Oh, and some of the bolts were a tad loose maybe. But I'm going with the bearing causing my problems.
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If the bearing is sort of pinching, and stopping at random spots it is surely about to fail catastrophically. Be happy you found it.
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About to fail catastrophically meaning that I shouldn't be riding it at all until it's replaced, or that I should just replace it within the next couple of weeks? I ask because this is my only means of transportation.
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don't ride any faster than you want to crash. Serious!
If it is pinching then the cage is broken, and a piece of steel is floating around in there. If it grabs wrong it will jam, and blow the rest of the cage apart causing the wheel to attempt a complete stop while shifting its center.
Yours may not be in that state but from your description what I state is correct. You don't have to get the Kymco bearing... Pull one out, and it is clearly marked as to it's dimensions. ANY good auto parts store will stock an exact replacement. Just tell them you don't know what it is from. Your boss needs it whatever.... They always rely on the F'n computer instead of their brains today.
Look for the Old Guy that has been there done that. Kids don't know sh** today.
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To follow up with the rear wheel thing, it seems to be spinning evenly now. I guess it just needed to be taken apart and reassembled.
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Well that's a step in the right direction.
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Some questions:
I finally got started with replacing my bearings (though I hit a snag where the local store doesn't sell metric bearings). When I roll them now that they're out of the wheel though, they roll smoothly. Can anyone make sense of that?
Also, I think my rear brake feels firmer. I did push in the piston because I accidentally hit the brakes when they weren't installed. But I would expect them to return to how they were before. The brake performance before and after otherwise seem normal. Can anyone make sense of that one as well?
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Another thing, I noticed that the front brake pad (at least one of them) is unevenly worn. I assumed this was related to the wheel bearing, but perhaps one of the brake pistons is sticking?
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Aside from rolling smoothly the front wheel bearings should have no side play. On any older scooter with front and rear disc brakes, they will have different pressure. Uneven pad wear is not normal, sometimes one pass itself is worn thinner, but they should be even.
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I wouldn't think it strange for the front and rear brakes to have different firmness. What's weird is that the rear brake got firmer after I finished changing the rear tire.
I assumed that the pad wearing unevenly is abnormal, I'm just wondering if the bearings were a likely cause. I guess I might as well disassemble/lubricate the brakes anyways though.
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So I got new bearings and installed them. They seem generally higher friction than the OEM bearings. Not a single pop per rotation like the last ones, but evenly rough with lots of little bumps. Is this normal for some bearings? Should I be concerned?
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Hard to determine what you mean with your description, new bearings should be smooth but might be tighter as the tolerance is close, the bearings you removed could be looser and rotate easier because of wear. Hard for me to follow what you are saying.
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How did you tap them in? Hitting the outer race? Maybe they were damaged during install. If should not feel rough and with a good spin be able to coast at least a few revolutions.
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I hit the outer race with a socket and hammer. I'm not sure how they could have been damaged.
It feels notchy. But unlike my last bearings with one notch per revolution, there's a bunch of evenly distributed notches.
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Well, I contacted the bearing manufacturer. They agreed that it didn't sound right and sent new ones. When I went to replace them though... they felt smooth.
I inspected the brake pads more carefully and indeed both front pads are a few millimeters thinner on the same side. Could this be related to the bike shaking at speed?
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Also, when I took out the pads and squeezed the brakes, only one of the pistons came out unless I held it down with a clamp. Is this normal or maybe related to the uneven brake wear?
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Also also, when I apply my brakes very lightly, I hear them skipping sometimes. My rotor, axle, and wheel runout seemed fine when I tested them. Could this be related to the brakes themselves somehow?