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General => General Discussion => Topic started by: blue on August 22, 2014, 12:48:56 PM
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I have seen more scoots this year with big bore kits on theamthen last year.and they blow up like a month later.I try telling people dont do it unless you replace the crank to...now I can go back and say I told you so.the schiwin scoot and theam cheap tao.taos are the frist to watch blow up.one broke the muffler bolts right out of the scoot.now thats something to see.
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now you got me all worried bro,
I just put in a 70cc malossi cylinder and variator. the mechanic at the shop is telling me after putting all together it doesn't run right. he says it revs high but don't seem to be going anywhere. it sounds like I need to change the belt. I'm waiting to get other people's opinions, anyone seen zombie?
anyone have any other suggestions?
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now you got me all worried bro,
I just put in a 70cc malossi cylinder and variator. the mechanic at the shop is telling me after putting all together it doesn't run right. he says it revs high but don't seem to be going anywhere. it sounds like I need to change the belt. I'm waiting to get other people's opinions, anyone seen zombie?
anyone have any other suggestions?
Zombie is busy building ( home ?? Shop?? ) something .
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Ok when you go 70cc and only use a variator kit with it you're not doing all the things that should also be done. I read up on this extensively and also grilled my shops top guy and the guy that works up front. This is a slippery slope my friend. This is why I upgraded to a Like 200i in the first place. It was easier that moding my Buddy 50.
First you need to, at the very least, up jet your carb. This is where carb experience is helpful. There are two or three jets and a needle. These need to be correctly sized and "dailed" in. An easier and better choice is to buy a larger carb because you're stock one just doesn't get the air flow to keep you from burning up yo sh**. If I remember correct my mechanic suggested a 19 or 21mm carb. I could be off on that my memory is foggy.
Second you need to get more air to that carb so you can get everything out of your carb and motor. New intake manifold and possibly a new air box. Some drill holes in their air box and just tape up holes as needed. I've even seen air filters made to plug those holes. You'll want a decent air filter as well.
Third you need a good pipe. Some middle of the road pipes do very well and you don't always need the one that's two hundred dollars more expensive. Educate yourself on what pipe you'll need 2t/4t and what makes one manufacturer better than the other.
Fourth is your CDI. I am not well read on these but your ignition is important. If I remember right it controls your spark. Cough Cough (good plug too)
Fifth Now that pesky CVT. Once you've got the air, fuel, ignition, and combustion all peachy you figure out how to tune your CVT to put that power to work in a way that suits your riding.
I seem to remember this whole slippery slope netting me an 800 dollar estimate in parts and labor. Good luck
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Neogenisis, I appreciate your help.
I'm sure there are tons of things I could do, but right now, I'd like to make it work with what I have.
- a 70cc cylinder
- performance variator
- contra spring
I changed the main jet to 85.
I'm waiting to see what others suggest before I order the new belt.
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I have seen more scoots this year with big bore kits on theamthen last year.and they blow up like a month later.I try telling people dont do it unless you replace the crank to...now I can go back and say I told you so.the schiwin scoot and theam cheap tao.taos are the frist to watch blow up.one broke the muffler bolts right out of the scoot.now thats something to see.
Wise words Blue, but I think you're gonna get some heat for voicing this idea out loud!
Some riders have to try I guess, for whatever reason.
For some it's just a fun pass-time.
So rarely makes sense, or turns out well, though, does it, once you're past taking that spacer out of the CVT?
Stig
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It's all good man. Just remember that installing a BBK on your scoot and not putting the rest of the upgrades on it is like buyin a v8 with a few cylinders not working. You're not going to get out of it what you should be getting out of it and it may shorten the life of it.
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The ability to successfully tune and build high performance engines is a science that takes years to develop with lots of failed parts along the way and tons of money spent.
Every system in the engine affects the other and the relationship must be symbiotic and well thought out.
A larger bore will just give you more torque but the ratio between the new bore and the combustion chamber changes and the compression ratio can become much higher, leading to detonation and a holed piston.
A larger displacement sucks more air and thus needs more fuel to meet the optimum fuel/ air ratio.
To expel the extra air, a better flowing exhaust is needed.
If the engine's rpm's are limited by the ECM then the bike may accelerate faster but the top speed will be the same.
The CVT, clutch and variator must work in harmony to give either faster acceleration OR top speed.
To do all of this correctly, a person really has to know what they are doing.
Any time you modify an engine to get more horsepower, torque and rpm's the life span will be shortened in most cases.
Race engines used in competition are sometimes rebuilt after every race due to the wear and abuse the engine goes through in the event.
If you want to look and sound cool, build that little 50cc scoot! I have:) If you want to actually have something that will run better, faster and longer, just buy something larger and leave it alone:)
Sam:)
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t.
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Wow so many replys so fast.must be a good topic.anyways what im trying to say is if you do it dont do a half ass job the ones I see that blow are the ones that dont replace the crank if you feel you need a bbk do the whole think not just half and make sure your motor can handle it.and give it some brake in time on low throtle befor going all out.
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Plus there is a lot of things you can do to make a stock scoot go faster.with out the bbk.
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I would say it's a bad idea too pay a shop to do it too. They won't have the road time to feel what the engine needs, and if you want then to dial it in, it'll take loads of cash. If the bike feels like it's revving and not going anywhere the weights might be too light. But you're shop should be able to diagnose this.
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Neogenisis, I appreciate your help.
I'm sure there are tons of things I could do, but right now, I'd like to make it work with what I have.
- a 70cc cylinder
- performance variator
- contra spring
I changed the main jet to 85.
thank you for your input porkie.
i didn't have a motorcycle license (i will get it next season) thats why i got the 50cc.
in reference to the thread title, you might be right, but out of all the other scoots, the 50cc is the one that you would want to mod. stock from the dealer (even with the 2 restrictions removed) its barely safe in a 30mph zone. for new york roads, its so slow that its dangerous. but don't get me wrong, i love my scoot.
Im not planning on race it, I just want a little more pep, thats all.
I'm waiting to see what others suggest before I order the new belt.
Yes, my local Vespa dealer stopped carrying the 50cc scoots ...they are in a rural small town and unless you were going to trailer it to your neighborhood...you'd get run over just trying to get it home. The salesman told me this. Kymco dealer still has them on the floor...but fortunately they aren't selling. In Ohio you'd still need a full motorcycle license...so why bother with 50cc. My 163cc Like200i can not really travel safely on the country highways around here....55 ..60mph posted which of course is taken to mean the minimum speeds by all drivers! So the Like200i is running for its life out there.....( think I saw 58mph on it once on a slight downgrade)
Stig
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thank you for your post bettingandlosing.
now were are getting somewhere!
so the mechanic said that its revving high and doesn't seem so go anywhere. he also said that when he opened the scoot up there was lots of dust.
It looks like I should change the belt and roller weights, I wonder which roller weights my malossi variator came with, :\
which weights should I get?
2012 kymco super 8 50cc 2 stroke
70cc kit
performance variator
white contra spring.
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thank you for your post bettingandlosing.
now were are getting somewhere!
so the mechanic said that its revving high and doesn't seem so go anywhere. he also said that when he opened the scoot up there was lots of dust.
It looks like I should change the belt and roller weights, I wonder which roller weights my malossi variator came with, :\
which weights should I get?
2012 kymco super 8 50cc 2 stroke
70cc kit
performance variator
white contra spring.
Kimura I changed my roller wights and got them from http://www.partsforscooters.com/ (http://www.partsforscooters.com/) Im using DR Pulley Sliders 7gm with purple malossi spring. I may mix them up with 8 gm sliders for a 7.5 gm slider effect.
http://www.partsforscooters.com/search-results?keywords=dr%20pulley (http://www.partsforscooters.com/search-results?keywords=dr%20pulley)
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The variator kits usually are designed for a race setup so the Malossi prolly came with too light of weights. With stock exhaust and contrast spring white you will want no lighter that 7gr weights. I'll bet the kit came with lighter than 5gr. My polini variator for my zuma came with 4gr!!
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I would say it's a bad idea too pay a shop to do it too. They won't have the road time to feel what the engine needs, and if you want then to dial it in, it'll take loads of cash. If the bike feels like it's revving and not going anywhere the weights might be too light. But you're shop should be able to diagnose this.
whai I dont understand is why pay the extra to have put the bbk on when the money you put in to the scoot can go for bigger one.it must be because of the law being 50 not 125 wear you need insurance to ride.
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In Oregon you need insurance for any scooter. I modify my two stroke scooters for fun and a learning experience. I have noticed when customers with 70cc kits want them to run better I can NEVER get it perfect because it would require hours and hours of tuning and no one wants to pay that much hence why they blow up. It's better to be ok with doing 50mph on a 50cc all day than 60 with a kit but you can't go wot for long without overheating.
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In Oregon you need insurance for any scooter. I modify my two stroke scooters for fun and a learning experience. I have noticed when customers with 70cc kits want them to run better I can NEVER get it perfect because it would require hours and hours of tuning and no one wants to pay that much hence why they blow up. It's better to be ok with doing 50mph on a 50cc all day than 60 with a kit but you can't go wot for long without overheating.
x2 keep it stock and keep the scoot longer.
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If your going to mod anything the transmission is where to start. I've been through so many cylinder kits lol. My bet & win would be 250cc but I purchased it blown up and the 300cc kit was far cheaper than rebuilding stock bore even with Kymco parts at cost (goes to show the quality of OEM parts). I'm 7000km in and going strong. 4t kits are much more reliable than 2t kits, with the gy6 I've gotten 10000 miles out of 180cc kits. Unless you're personally able to tune, test then re tune, stock is the way to go.
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Im pretty satisfied with a exhaust chop and weld, dr pulley sliders, purple spring and a minor upjet. Doing 42 MPH now with synthetic oil and carb adjustment. May want to look into a old carb Bettin mentioned before that was stock on an older model scooter that can be used on the 2013 Super 8 2 stroke.
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The time and money you spend fixing up a scoot to break the law is more expensive than getting the motorcycle endorsment and insurance.
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Haha breaking the law on a kitted out 70cc is the finest part of it all.
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Short answer: When you increase cc, you have to upjet. Change to a freer flowing pipe, upjet again. As been already mentioned, a bigger bore will not increase your top speed, it will just get you there faster. If you want higher top speed, then you have to change the gearing. You can keep your stock carb during all this. With a bigger bore, you should have the power to handle the gear changes. It's fun to mess around and mod the 50cc scoots - in Hawaii they get the older Honda dio engines up to 70mph. But eventually you realize if you want to go faster, it works out better just to get a bigger scoot.
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Short answer: When you increase cc, you have to upjet. Change to a freer flowing pipe, upjet again. As been already mentioned, a bigger bore will not increase your top speed, it will just get you there faster. If you want higher top speed, then you have to change the gearing. You can keep your stock carb during all this. With a bigger bore, you should have the power to handle the gear changes. It's fun to mess around and mod the 50cc scoots - in Hawaii they get the older Honda dio engines up to 70mph. But eventually you realize if you want to go faster, it works out better just to get a bigger scoot.
I disagree with one point, on a 50cc bike a 70cc kit WILL increase top speed alone because it increases max rpm. My zuma stock was maxed out around 8500rpm with a kit and no pipe I could get over 9000rpm which equates a 10mph difference. A pipe will further increase max rpm to the point of being potentially damaging to the crankshaft. On a 2t you don't NEED gearing you need rpms. Gearing will also decrease acceleration, if you are fine with 50-55mph stock gearing will rip up to that speed with kit, if your looking for a crazy fast top speed bike then yes gearing is needed.
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Well, you are right about the top speed, I stand corrected. The porting they put into those kits are really something. You are also right about having the right crank, the stock one is only designed to do so much. How much? I do not know. They usually run really great before they blow up. That's what happened on my Stella, anyway. My Vespas were and are incredibly reliable, as they are so under stressed. Like I said before, the 50s are fun to mess with.
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Anything over 10k is pushing your luck with a stick 50cc crank. What kind of vintage Vespas do you have? I love shifter scoots
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Bettingandlosing, thank you so much for your input.
You are probably right about the roller weights, what should I do? get heavier roller weights or have him put in the stock ones? will the stock ones even fit (its a malossi variator) ? how many grams should I get?
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Blue: You should have changed your thread header to "All Scoots are made to be Stock" I know 50cc guys will set fire to me for saying this, but in the end, it's the best way. By the time you pay for all the upgrades & parts etc. You could have purchased a 125cc-150cc (or even) in more many cases. I understand if you don't have a m/c endorsement, then maybe. An Agility 125 ($2000) or a Lance PCH 125 ($1900) is a better bet. I bought a Lance PCH 125 for me wife & it's a solid little scooter. It looks 10x better to me then the Agility 125 (which I think looks terrible)
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Blue: You should have changed your thread header to "All Scoots are made to be Stock" I know 50cc guys will set fire to me for saying this, but in the end, it's the best way. By the time you pay for all the upgrades & parts etc. You could have purchased a 125cc-150cc (or even) in more many cases. I understand if you don't have a m/c endorsement, then maybe. An Agility 125 ($2000) or a Lance PCH 125 ($1900) is a better bet. I bought a Lance PCH 125 for me wife & it's a solid little scooter. It looks 10x better to me then the Agility 125 (which I think looks terrible)
For the most part it is not practical, but its a fun practical experiment to make something designed to go slow, go fast. I totally agree with you, of youth need a bike that goes 50 on a daily basis modding a 50 it's a worse option than getting a 125/150 but if you do your own work it's really not that expensive to mod a 50..... Unless you're zombie
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I have a 1980 P200 and a 1974 Super 150. I also have a 2013 like 200 that I have not put 1000 miles on yet as I have owned it for about 6 weeks. Nice scooter - great brakes but terrible stiff shocks and I am still trying to get used to the seat.
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I have a 1980 P200 and a 1974 Super 150. I also have a 2013 like 200 that I have not put 1000 miles on yet as I have owned it for about 6 weeks. Nice scooter - great brakes but terrible stiff shocks and I am still trying to get used to the seat.
Check for correct PSI in the tires, and set the shocks to their softest - see if that helps.
The Seat......is a ...
Well, just watch your knees don't get hung up with the grips on a slow turning.
After I rebuilt my seat I was able to scoot back and get my knees away from the handlebar.
Hopefully you're running your best oil in there? (one change at 75 miles, one at 600 - so scoot would now have 3rd bottle of oil in there)
Ride safe!
Stig