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Scooters - 50cc => Super 9 => Topic started by: TheAmishSasquatch on February 21, 2016, 06:48:13 PM
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Ok scooter fans, Yeti needs your help. I just installed the Malossi version PHBG carburetor and unlike the previous Dellorto PHBG replica; The Malossi doesn't come with the port for oil injection. I'm not sure if the Malossi PHBG has the internal oil passages cast in the carb body or not. If it does, then this thread is a moot topic and I'll drill the port. If there is no internal oil passages I need your help in how do I remove or stop the oil injection pump? Also how do I properly pre mix gas should I not be able to use injector?
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Oil line from the oil pump goes into the intake manifold, not carb. Oil mixes with fuel downstream from carb.
With Malossi kit, I think still works the same way. If you want to disable oil pump, I think all you have to do is remove the shaft that engages with the crankshaft, it just slips off, then drain your oil tank, and reinstall the oil pump without the shaft.
You can premix gas by adding the appropriate quantity of oil to gas tank when you buy gas at the station. Or, premix it at home in gas can.
Decide how much oil to run? Oil pump is delivers approx 2.5oz per gallon, I run 3.5oz because I don't know any better. Seems like BBK needs more oil than 49cc OEM engine. I don't have the Malossi PHBG carb (still running the OEM Keihin carb) but I add 1oz premix oil when I add 1 gallon of gas at the gas pump. My oil pump is still connected, so with another 1oz of oil added to the fuel tank, I am running approx 3.5oz oil per gallon of gas.
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yeah I have the Malossi 19mm Dellorto PHBG Carb and the way it works is stock put oil in carb and and cylinder but Dellorto is not set up like that originally.....though you can do it there are ports in carb and parts to order to do so........
What you want to do is delete the Y connection going from oil pump intake and carb to just a straight connection from pump to intake. The way I did this way I just took off hose from connector going to carb and slipped a vacuum hose plug of correct size over open part of connector VOILA no issues in over 2K miles of carb being on.
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^^ sounds legit. Could you provide any pics? It's weird how a random PHBG black racing replica has the correct ports and hook ups for the Super 9, but the Super 9 specific kit from Malossi does not. :o
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Hope this helps since it works on vacuum I didn't even zip tie it and I got a cap assortment at Autozone
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Also because of an throttle cable issue on Sat and a BBK installed tonight I'm premixing so oil pump is still running but only doing 100/1 but like I said I've been running the carb for last 2K miles and no issues
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Thanks, I'll try that tonight. Not sure what I should mix too.
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if you still have cable connecting to pump no mixing required I had cable break so I am running single cable to carb now nothing to pump but left it filled and hooked up so its giving idle speed oil to engine plus I'm premixing 40/1
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Why would anyone want to remove an oil injection system? Maybe for "RACING" but not for touring or commuting. One of the the bikes I had in pre-historic times was a '66 Yamaha YM-1 (YDS-3 similar) 305 with oil injection. Had it for about 20000 miles for touring and commuting and nary a problem with the injection system. After a SAAB GT-750 sedan with 10 gallon tank and NO injection! What a PITA! Touring and commuting was a nightmare having to pre-mix partial tanks and risking flame-out on a trip. As usual, your choice......
Karl
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Why would anyone want to remove an oil injection system? Maybe for "RACING" but not for touring or commuting. One of the the bikes I had in pre-historic times was a '66 Yamaha YM-1 (YDS-3 similar) 305 with oil injection. Had it for about 20000 miles for touring and commuting and nary a problem with the injection system. After a SAAB GT-750 sedan with 10 gallon tank and NO injection! What a PITA! Touring and commuting was a nightmare having to pre-mix partial tanks and risking flame-out on a trip. As usual, your choice......
Karl
The Malossi carb I'm going to run is void of the oil injection bung, so no place to attach it. As stated; I'm not sure if the carburetor body has the oil passages cast and simply left un tapped or if the carb is void of those as well. I suppose I could alway drill and see, but I'd rather not unless others have blazed that trail before me. So I'm looking at other options and injection removal is about the only one.
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you're not removing the oil just removing the line to carb is a Vacumn tube it goes from carb and intake manifold to oil pump the oil line from pump goes into intake right before the reed block you don't have to delete oil pump I didn't and only reason I am premixing now is because I'm running single cable to just carb and have put on a BBK just do what I did in that pic you'll be fine with oil pump.
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My stock carb never had a place to run oil lines, so going to the arreche didn't make any difference. Just lines to the intake.
Removing the pump, in my opinion, is best for reducing the risk of burning up your top End due to mechanical failures. Even though I Still run the pump, I fear the day that it gives up. Only a little though. I want a New crank and Still have an extra malossi kit on my counter :)
Edit, my arreche has the oil line spot, I just capped it off.
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The Black PHBG is the carburetor I was previously running. As you can see there are provisions for vacuum and oil injection
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This is the Malossi I currently have installed. As you see it is suspiciously devoid of vacuum or oil injection. I have drilled and installed a vacuum port.
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I thought our intakes had a vacuum port on them? Or did yours get hacked in the modifying process?
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Yes and yes. I have added a vacuum port to the new carb.
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nice job I'll send mine out to you next week to mod lol
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I woder if the port I added can be used as the oil injection port, since it's nearly mid stream in the system? I could alway add another port further down stream for vacuum or vise versa. I find it difficult to believe that I'm the only one who's run into this issue; I also find it difficult in that Malossi would not have everything ready to go for a carb kit designed for a particular bike??
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I'm still not sure where you had an issue. My bike never had oil lines to the carb. Only to the intake near the reed block. But I'm sure that as long as it doesn't mess with the venturi, then you should be okay. Too many holes could mess stuff up.
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The side port on the black carb I posted is the oil injection port. The rear port near the intake manifold (or on the manifold in your case) is the vacuum port. Without the provisions for an oil injection port on the Malossi carb; there is no way to hook oil injection up so that the oil is sprayed in the venturi.
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Oil sprayed into the venturi?, I don't think that is necessary or desirable. I bet your intake manifold has a fitting for the oil line.
Did you buy your scooter used? I bought mine used and I don't recall all the screw-ups, but several had vacuum, fuel, and oil lines routed wrong. As I recall, on your AC the vacuum line goes to the carb body on the engine side, and the oil line goes to the manifold closer to the engine than the vacuum line.
I have both Super 9 LC and People 50 2T AC and both handle the oil injection exactly the same way, oil line goes to the intake manifold. Cheers
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I misspoke earlier by saying venturi. My setup was ak-baswards from how you describe yours, and is how Zombie and I think Wordslinger told me to hook it up in my old PHBG trouble thread. The vacuum was mounted to the intake port and oil to the carb. How it's dispersed or mixed in the intake/fuel charge I am unsure and don't really care at this juncture. Regardless of which line goes to which port is irrelevant as well as the Malossi carb doesn't have provisions for either one :\ A bit disappointed with the kit atm. .... I haven't even gotten to start the tuning SNAFU s yet, geez lol.
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Yeah, mine is still stock setup routing, oil line from pump to the intake by the reed block, vacuum line to the top of the intake by the carb mounting. Then I capped off the oil place on the arreche carb.
Pardon the mess, she's my daily, and it's been raining, snowing, and icing every few days. (http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160227/6eae48fe3a9e7520415440deffeb786e.jpg) this one's the oil line
(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160227/457f0677d6c3f043553ac349891c7949.jpg)this one shows the carb, where I have the oil port capped, and the vacuum line to the top of the intake. Can even see the oil line to the base of the intake.
I know you're not setup this way anymore. Just thought I'd share.
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Thanks. I'll try and mess with it when I get back in town.
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The Malossi kit is not Bike specific it gives pieces to make installing carb easier and provides chock and cables and mounting hardware and such but it is not specifically designed for each and every bike so you modification is usually required. Until my throttle cable broke and I replaced it with a 4T cable I had no issues running with the carb not hooked up to pump I'm not entirely sure why you're so concerned about doing so? My pump and engine ran rin with oil pump just going to intake manifold and nothing going to carb but air and gas. Pum worked fine and never had to add oil to gas hence kept carb cleaner longer.
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I'm concerned with the hook up ports because running the pump, is something I would prefer to do. Yes I could hack away, or remove parts and block others and have a perfectly running bike. But that kind of defeat the pupose of having the convenience and ease of a self mixing 2 stroke. More so then that and despite your claiming that the kit is not bike specific; the kit was labeled as such, the info pack in the kit says that it's specifically tuned for that particular bikes engine and requirements. This is why each version has a different part number. Now I imagine the carb is set to cover a couple similar bikes like the super 8, cobra, and top boy but set for those bikes (ball park). It's that specificity and R&D that Malossi use to develop parts for paricular scooters. This is why I pay large amounts of cash to Malossi, for my hobby and it's that brand reputation that I'm trusting and buy into. This kit while labeled specifically for the super 9 but, is fundementally not close, yet a cheap-ass $29 (shipped) knock off, had absolutely everything need to plug and play out of the box. It was ONLY the fact the I want all of my tuning parts to be malossi that I removed it and sold it. The point is it just bothers me is all. I will most likely do as you recommend and run pre mix and remove/block the pump. Thanks for your help and input and helping me to get my bike rinning.
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Amish, I have been disappointed by Malossi a few times too and know your pain. I think they sometimes over promise and and under deliver. The dealers know this, and generally refuse to take returns of anything with a Malossi label. Also, support is minimal if at all. If we didn't have this forum and others like it for info, I don't know what we would do.
With all that being said, I genuinely like Malossi and use many of there products with success. Malossi variator is great IMO, BBK is amazing... However, they are not perfect, I say "caveat emptor", let the buyer beware. Cheers
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Amish I don't think you're understanding me I ran pump without it going to carb and it worked just fine didn't need to premix and engine got plenty of oil.
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And Chaz hates is a Malossi hater........but I'm working on him.......
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I knew would be trouble lol's...
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Ok, yeah I wasn't understanding you were still running the oil pump. So just put the oil line into the port on the infake manitold?
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Pace disconnected the cable, just keeps it running from the gear, basically for idle, and Pre mixes for the rest.
Oil line from the pump to the port at the base of the intake.
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Then again, you said the port at the carb side of the intake is gone from your mod, and you ran your vacuum line to the port at the base, iirc. Maybe you could run the vacuum to the place you're planning on the carb?
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No Tries thats what I'm doing now but yes Amish I was still running the pump to intake just capped of that Y fitting as my pic showed so nothing running to carb the pump worked fine like this for about 2K miles as long as it goes to intake and you still have cable from splitter going to pump it will work properly it does not need to go to carb. Now since my throttle has broken and I was given a 4 stroke cable with no splitter I took cable off pump and premix. To clarify you do not need oil to carb oil to intake manifold is all you need it will work just fine with no need to premix oil in gas tank.
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Oh yeah, the cable break. Forgot about that...
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Thanks fellas. Hope to have the first start of the season, sometime this week.
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Will this setup and port location work? One port to bring them together; one port to rule them all. ::)
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Hmmm I have no clue guess you got to try and find out lol.
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Yeah, your rite. I think this should work. The fuel check valve will continue to get its vacuum and the oil will be sucked from the pump into the air stream after the venturi and just before the intake manifold as it is in the OEM configuration. I may attempt to start today, depending on weather. I still have to check the 7 day for cast as March in PA can mean all 4 seasons in a single week!! Not ideal for tuning a 2 stroke :o
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What is the problem with the port on the intake base where the oil line belongs? Why nothing to that? If you ran your vacuum to the port in the carb you made and the oil line to the intake base, I would imagine it to be safer. The oil would be closer to entry into the case and the petcock wouldn't risk getting oil into it (which I wouldn't think to be a problem, just better in the engine than the petcock lol)
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No port on the intake as it was hacked off when I modded the manifold as the Dell replica had all the ports needed. I'll try this configuration and see how it goes.
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So you plugged the one that was near where it bolts to the engine or something?
Anyways, let us know how it goes!
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so. . . . what did you do. . . .
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I tried starting the bike. No start. Weak battery, so I got a new one. Gonna try later today to get it going. I think the drilled port may be too far up, so I'll probably remove it and fill with JBweld and relocate it further down stream. I also have concern that the "y" fitting might be counter productive. At this point everything is speculation. I'll hopefully know more later this afternoon. Wish me good luck.
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Good luck, brother!
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good luck bro
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Thanks guys. I tried again today, but no luck. I think it's getting too much fuel and not enough spark. The plug is getting wet with oily gas. Might drop down my main jet or idle jet and try again.
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Choke the carb with your hand and no air filter maybe? See if it'll fire like that?
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Will do.
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turn your idle fuel all the way in
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Still nothing. Idle is all the way out (min open position), brass screw all the way in. Tried palm choking the inlet and nothing. I smell fuel, checked spark. Spark can be seen but the lightning bolts are thin and all over the electrode element.
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try new plug?
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Thanks for thr suggestion, but Ive already tried plugs. I typically buy 3-4 new plugs every time I know I'll be tuning the carb at all. One did smell of gas/oil but didn't show evidence of being damp. I swapped it for another new/dry plug. Still nothing. Now the battery is dead again :\ Gonna charge it up over night and try again :o
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Damn man. This thing has given you hell. Think it could be a cdi and spark issue? Didn't you go through that already?
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Is there gas in the carb?, maybe having trouble with auto petcock flowing fuel to the carb. Good luck...