KymcoForum.com
General => Technical | How To => Topic started by: Shaka on April 06, 2010, 02:48:37 AM
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As many of you have seen from a few leaks on other threads, I have been experimenting with a technique called variator notching. The idea behind it is to elongate the roller ramps. This enables the rollers to travel further thus pushing the pulley faces closer together and allowing the belt to ride all the way to the top of the pulley face.
On my initial trial with just roughly filed and sanded ramps I used my Dr. Pulley sliders and did actually get the belt riding up higher on the pulley faces, but still about 4mm from the edge. Previously it had been running almost 8mm from the edge. I also gained about 2-3mph faster top speed as compared to the Malossi multivar I run normally. I tested this by taking a permanent marker and drawing radial lines across the variator face and measuring how much of the line was left after the test run.
I was pretty exited about my first test run with the stock notched variator as it seemed to out-perform my Malossi! I then proceeded to file and finish sand the ramps smoother. In doing so, I ended up removing a little bit more material off the ends of the ramps. I also took about .3-.5mm off the center of the face side to allow the pulley halves to come a little bit closer together.
With high hopes I re-installed the notched variator this afternoon to give it another test run. I started the scoot and reved it a bit while on the center stand. Then there was a change in noise, and the engine wanted to stall, didn't sound good! I immediately killed the engine and pulled the cvt cover back off. Two of my sliders had wedged sideways at the end of the ramp!
For now I'm going to have to call my experiment a Fail! I still have reason to believe that this technique works and if done the proper way will out-perform many of the performance variators on the market. I think I just took about 1mm too much material off! I think even the way mine is now it may work with rollers instead of sliders. I just don't have any rollers the correct weight to get a good comparison right now.
I think that ultimately, variator notching does work and is a viable performance enhancement if done very carefully! It may take a bit of trial and error to get it right. If you're on a budget and are considering buying a performance variator anyways, you may as well give it shot. It could very well save you some money! If it doesn't work, you're back were you started buying an new performance one! I will however say that it is a very time consuming process and there is no way to really make it any faster. If you try and remove too much material too quickly you'll most likely screw it up! Take your time with a file and sandpaper, don't bust out the hacksaw and dremel!
I'm attaching a few pics. The first one is of my roughly cut ramps. This is the point at which I made my initial test. Second is the after much more sanding and filing. The cut aways are a little larger at this point, but this allowed for a smoother ramp. This is the point at which I had the slider get wedged. Third is of the face showing where I removed the .5mm around the center.
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G'Day Shaka, sad that it didn't work this time but you are on the right track, a little fine tuning and lots of patience and you will be onto a good thing. All the best with it.
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Thanks Sid! Now if only I had another spare variator and another 10 or so hours! ;) I may try it again with some rollers just to see if they stay in without twisting sideways. I think the pointed end on the slider just got stuck hanging out! I've seen it done with good results, so I know if done right it works!
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Is it not worth trying what you already have with rollers?
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I just don't have any 8.5g rollers so I wouldn't really get a good gauge of performance. I may try with some 9g rollers I have, but they are new, so I don't really want to use them.
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Anyone have any spare rollers? The workmanship looks terrific! I see your point about the wedges getting hung tho. I would bet the farm it works w/ rollers! Thanks for sharing it also. It may spark someone to collaborate w/ you putting the multi-var people out of business... At least in our circles.
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Check out scooter assassins on ebay, rollers $6.90 a set. My old ones are a little less than round, full of flat spots.
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Thanks for the positive feedback guys! I feel kinda bad it didn't work out! I put a lot of time into it! That's the way it goes though! I'm certain if I had another variator to play around with I could do it much better! There are so many places I feel I could improve! You only learn from experience though, at least I do! I definitely think it will work better with rollers though! I just don't really want to put any money into this project, it was supposed to be just an experiment! By putting a roller in it, I can't make it fall out or twist sideways by hand. Centrifugal forces can do funny things though!
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Hey, Shaka, I dont think you can say it didnt work, not yet anyway, just not quite there yet. look at different sized rollers, there may be something that works better with what you have.
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Im willing to donate a 3000km old factory variator to the cause if its of any use. Am in Oz so freight will hurt too much maybe, but like the idea and what to see the outcome. C`mon, we all want more speed dont we?? Get on board and help the man help us!
Holty
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Good lookin out Brother! They say it's a small world, but it still seems too big at times!
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Freight for a variator should only be about $7 or $8.
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Thanks for the offer Topaz! What is the variator off of? Will it fit my ZX50? I may take you up on that.
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My old one is stock as far as I know, 14,000 kms old, yours if you want it, just give me an address to send it to, my new "race variator" is working fine so I won't be needing the old one.
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Hey, Shaka. I like the fact that you're doing this kind of thing. I confess I don't know a thing about variators. Could you get a local welder to put a tiny bead of aluminum weld out there where you think you took too much off and re-work it? Assuming it's an aluminum casting. I've seen really nice aluminum welds done on crankcases and ground to where you couldn't tell at all.
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Thanks Hoolander! I really can't take all the credit! I didn't come up with the idea, I just read about it elsewhere and was intrigued. I believe it was a technique probably used more "back in the day" before they had "performance variators". Since my stock variator was just sitting around collecting dust I figured I would give it a shot. As for the welding, I was actually thinking of using some type of epoxy or putty between the ramps to keep the rollers from coming out of the tracks. I think the problem may be with fast deceleration where the rollers free float for a second. When they are at the end of the ramp there is not much of a side wall holding them in. I still can't get the rollers to turn sideways unless I hold the backing plate at the furthest out board position and shake the whole thing. That is why I was thinking may the rapid deceleration took the pressure off them for a moment allowing them to float around. The possible problem with using either epoxy or welding is you have to keep the variator balanced. It may be difficult to add the same amount of material to every ramp. I really think that if I do it again I will leave about 2mm more from the current depth and about 1mm narrower on the width and it should work better. I may give it another go with some rollers tomorrow if I get a chance. This test will be more about keeping the rollers in place and less about performance though. I don't want to ride the scoot till I know they will stay put. I really don't want to damage anything else in my cvt from another failure! I also don't have exactly the right weight rollers so I won't be able to get a good gauge on overall performance increase.
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Sid came through!!! I checked my mail and there was a package from down under, floating and everything! JK! ;D Anyway, very cool Sid, thank you! I'll try and find some time for Variator Notching 2.0!
As a side note, your variator is polished almost all the way to the edge. Mine is polished about 7mm from the edge and yours is 3mm. What belt are you using? I wonder if mine is different? I'm currently running a Malossi Kevlar and was for a little while on the stock variator, but before that it was stock. Still never got the travel yours did!
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...dude, that's awesome...i'm still waiting on you before i try this....
..i agree, i think rollers will work better than the sliders, but i think if you had stopped a cpl mm sooner, you'ld be notchin' your way around town right now....
..good luck!!!!
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That what round two is for! ;D I'll get it right this time!
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Mine is the stock belt as far as I know. next time I have the cover off I will get the part no.
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My new var. was black painted and when I put in the 7 gram rollers a few days ago I noticed it also was polished to the edge. might try the 6 soon.
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what up guys...sorry i been away... i sortof like this idea, not fully understanding yet..imagine that...lmao..burntout....how r u not making the ramps straight up and down basically,with a file no less...i see sid has jumped up in "the world of words"..hammer down homeboy!!!.. im like sid i HAVE to work all this on a budget..lm digging the 82cc setup u spoke off.sounds good. i thought the belt would ride all the way up after the change anyway?.
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G'Day Batman, the 82cc kit sounded pretty good but it has had it's share of problems, at one point zombie had described it as a F**?/ing hand grenade. After fiddling and pulling it apart time and again I hope to have got it sorted out. Having said that, with a bit of patience it has been a rewarding experience because sometimes you do get results, though sometimes it does go the other way. The joys of buying cheap. How are you going with your scoot, did you end up getting your C.V.T. sorted out?
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what up...see, thats why im even scared of a kit..SEVERAL say not to if its a daily rider..6-8mths max before rebuild.i live in mtns, sooo,idk.. y, sh** no..,still ill over that but havent really done anything lately. i crashed, had to fix that. i posted in my thread,zx issues.. dont really have hundreds of bucks to toss away right now, the guessin game sux....lmao. sounds lk u have the stuff for urs. 24mm carb??.daaaaam!!!. i thought of changin my carb but really dont know if it would help much wo the kit..carb is cheaper than kit..lmao. the 14mm oem is way small..i was thinkin 19
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Yeah, the oko carb I got seems to be pretty good, it is easy to change the main jet if nothing else, again, it was cheap, $125. They also do a 20mm carb.
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seems like that carb would b saved for racing..i was thinkin 19mm carb but my motor still stock, could b a waste of cash wo the rest..ever find any used preformance parts?? cheaper parts??, i seen where u said u found weights for like $7.00.
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Actually batman, the 19mm carb, and intake will help. Mostly on the top end. You can always kit/or not later... but the carb. will help.
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now thats what i was thinking..more gas, would need more air then. 19 sounded good to me. guess it would have to be rejetted huh?? the oem 14mm is way tiny..lol. that one local shop said it wouldnt make a diff. witout the kit. they go hand and hand type thing.. seen them for like 109.
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Batman, I think the trick to getting a kit that works is to buy a proven product! I have had very little comparatively to others with my Airsal kit. The whole "performance pack" I got from Moped Hospital was basically a bolt on and go! I'm more one for the tuning though, so I want every bit of performance I can out it!
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Shaka, You know I never diss. my Bro's BUT you had to go thru all sorts of hell to get your kit to bolt up correctly. I remember even if you (forget)? Batman, Every kit has to be "tuned" No matter how good it is it always has to be adjusted some on every scoot. The best kits will plug/play, and could still be tuned better. The least known kits have the most problems fitting, never mind running well. I would recommend saving an extra few dollars to buy a Delorto, or a Mikuni or something. Oko is hit or miss w/ quality. Also think about the throttle cable. MOST aftermarket carbs will require a new cable to fit. Or at least some re-fitting of the cable end/adjuster.
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It was a pain, but I think much of that was the learning curve as well! Really all that I needed was 3 base gaskets. I'm still running 2 and 2 top and bottom. Went out today in search of metal, still no luck. I did find some steel that was the right thickness, but I'll keep looking for aluminum just for ease of fabricating.
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I was hoping you found some already! I'll resume the search as well.
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Thanks bro!
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hey Shaka, I have just tried the 5 gram rollers in my scoot but it was no good, engine screaming for bugger all, I have not yet got the engine right. The belt on my scoot is Kymco 23100 KCX9000 Bando, I believe that is the standard one. When I took the 5 gram rollers out, the radial lines I put on the variator were mostly gone except for a little over 2mm, so the 5 gram weights wont close it fully. I have now got the 6 gram weights in (roller), see how that goes.
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I believe that is the stock belt. If you are getting all but 2mm on the variator face the 5g were probably closing it all the way. They may not have had enough weight behind them to hold the belt tight though. 5g sounds very light to me though. I know on mine I have tried 6g rollers and it just screams! Right not I'm running 8.5g. Before I did the reduction gears I was running 9g. You most certainly need to go heavier! I actually had good results popping my sliders in the drill press and boring them out. That's how I went from 9 to 8.5g.
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The variator came with 8.5gram rollers, when I put in the 7s I liked that a little better, I think 7s are the ones It didnt take long for the rollers to get flat spots on them.
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Ive been running 5.5's from the jump!
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Were they low quality rollers? Once you find the correct weight, I'd go for some sliders!
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Mister, you talked me in to it.
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They really do work! They wear very minimally also!
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now r u sure that var isnt oem sid?? you sure its different?? oem uses 8.5 rollers..surely its way different..the only springs he has says fits peugot?,stricker?(but they look the xame as mine ) gonna try whole new spring setup...sid,im running 7.5 at the moment..have sum carbon 7s to use, better for corners,7.5 better on top..
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???...wonder if that var that sid has would actually help my setup or not??.. good day i can hit 52, avg.47mph, of course downhill i can bury it..lmao
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Ive been running 5.5's from the jump!
..i preached on them..5.5s for so long...
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I think I could get used to the 6 but the 5 were definately no good. When I get used to these and get the engine sorted I may even try the 5.5.
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The whole end result depends on the overall set-up. The 5's may not do it for yours. The idea is getting into the rpm range of the engine using the cvt tuning to make it stay there.
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...yeah...THAT'S IT!!!
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i know i am a jr zx man wit stock head but i tried 5.7, & 6 rollers...sucked hard.. only revved top speed was like 10mph...hey sid, so you COULD tell a difference in size, looks on those var?? dont know if it will hurt MY CURRENT setup but i will need one...since you have a BIG kit
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" i tried 5.7, & 6 rollers...sucked hard.. " What contra spring did you have when you tried the 5.7-6gr?
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i was using the mid 1500 yellow spring.. tried oem spring wit equivelent to 7g(42.6), not right either..lmao. have 1500 thruout now wit 7.5 she wasnt running as good today as yesterday for sum dam reason...changes dam near daily...
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...i just re-jetted and i'm straight now....went down about one size..
..hittin 85 kmh with no wind...
..i'm happy....
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I went thru that a few times. Seemed like there was a curse or something on the engine. I would get it all close, and it would run like $hit the next. New plug. New filters. Change the fluids, and it appeared the scoot liked me better. Then it was back to changing one part at a time.
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..jumped right in front of y' didn i...lol...
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What about the yellow contra, and the 7.5 rollers?
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I saw you coming, and pulled up the zipper!
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...don't make me google your ass...
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If you really want a laugh? Go for it! you can start here...Muirchertach Mac Lochlainn
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LMAO......thats what im running now..wanna trade out for malossi and jasil brand to c if my springs may b an issue,ncy....an put it in myself...lmao
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If you really want a laugh? Go for it! you can start here...Muirchertach Mac Lochlainn
..i bet you have red hair.......
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It may be a good idea to stick apples w/ apples. I don't know too much about NYC parts or their ratings.
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yeah, just wondering if i got a bad one..as to y my rev,takeoff suffers so...true but dont u or sumbody run different springs???..malossi an jasil???
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No... We bread the "ginger" out centuries ago. The Spaniards (black Irish) were a mixed blessing. Still kept those blue devil eyes tho!
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...yeah, my great grandparents were irish.....
..my granny had bright light blue eyes...
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.as to y my rev,takeoff suffers so If you go stronger on the contra spring w/ all else the same it will take longer to get to your top "gear" . If you add stiffer fly springs they will hold the clutch from locking until higher rpms. You do want stiff clutch springs to begin with. That is the BASE of your tuning. The next step is to deceide if you are reving too high at top end or not high enough. That is controlled Mainly by the rollers. the next bit is to decide if it is taking too long to reach the top gear, and that is adjusted w/ the contra spring. This approach may make it easier to feel what each part is doing. You should be able to take off, and be feeling the power all the way thru to the top if the cvt is set correctly.
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..my granny had bright light blue eyes... And BOY did they shine!!! ~My grandpa told me about her~
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.as to y my rev,takeoff suffers so If you go stronger on the contra spring w/ all else the same it will take longer to get to your top "gear" . If you add stiffer fly springs they will hold the clutch from locking until higher rpms. You do want stiff clutch springs to begin with. That is the BASE of your tuning. The next step is to deceide if you are reving too high at top end or not high enough. That is controlled Mainly by the rollers. the next bit is to decide if it is taking too long to reach the top gear, and that is adjusted w/ the contra spring. This approach may make it easier to feel what each part is doing. You should be able to take off, and be feeling the power all the way thru to the top if the cvt is set correctly.
...YEAH, THAT'S IT!!!
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...yeah...she got around...
..had 12 kids and none of them look alike at all...
..i dunno...
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Kicking it Old School, Speakeasy's, China-mans Den, The Other side of the tracks... Representing "Other SiEEdE". I think our grandma's ran together~
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..probly...she was a saint...bless her soul.....
...striped my ass more than once...she waas holy hell with that 4 ft hickory switch....
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Mine used to share her Cigs., and booze from the time I was 7... Instead of school I would go to grandma's in the Bronx. I sure miss her!!!
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Wish I could get down to the cvt, still stuck on the engine. My time will come. I hope.
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...cvt tuning on my 4t made a world of difference...
..if y' cant get the horsepower transferred to th' road, then it's all in vain....
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like i said in the other how she wasnt running as good yesterday as the day before.. if u listen to it u can hear things.lmao. the pipe makes noises, well mine does, the back firing i guess.sounds like a dirtbike..lmao, yesterday it wouldnt do that..when u let off gas, it was quiet!!! going uphill it got "muffeled" wasnt that 2t sound and slower. i was 5-6mph SLOWER than THE DAY B4!!. now theres u a good one to answer.. temp, humidity, gas, oil?? idk, she is a bit dirty, maybe she was mad at that ....lmao
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Maybe due for the air filter clean?
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Maybe due for the air filter clean? I'd go w/ that. Check/change your plug too.
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all i did was wash it and she ran better than yesterday....i do wash her every couple days...she preforms different DAILY!!!!!
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She responds to your T.L.C.
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all i did was wash it and she ran better than yesterday....i do wash her every couple days...she preforms different DAILY!!!!!
..which way and how hard is the wind blowing...
...no, seriously...makes a difference, and a big difference on a "stock" scoot...
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well i tried to post but my dam fone screwed me so this is short..no difference in wind these few days, you could actually here the pipe sounds, today was good, yesterday wasnt..i know about wind,lmao sum days way suck ass..mtn air???, i am at different altitude, humidity???, temp did vary slightly these days...guess im the only mtn scooter here... :'( :'( :'(... RLMAO...
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..well, it your temps and relative humidity aren't changing much, then you can rule that out...
..but you may need to adjust for the less dense air...
..most of these guys with their zx50's in here are in the low-lands...
...just a thought, but what your scoot needs may be waay different than what these guys are running...
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thats what im afraid of....the lone wolf in this vast space....lmao all kinds of scoots around but none in here....
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..wish I knew more about 2-strokes than I do, but i think you've gotta get your carburetion right with your engine and cvt setup....
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..well, it your temps and relative humidity aren't changing much, then you can rule that out... There is the possibility the scoot has been used as a scoot for its entire life. Some of these machines fall on their face after a few years... I rebuilt a "Factory Bike" that was a 1 of. tHE BRAND/DETAILS DON'T MATTER. I rebuilt it spending MORE than the production model cost. That bike put me thru 2 years of school to get a Bachelors in electronics. (8 tracks were in vouge then). The point is when that bike was the $hit, I recieved it in a SHAMBLES. Bat: , and everyone else... It is only as good as the way it has been treated! Silk purse, and all. I would buy an S9 in boxes before I would buy a classic ANYTHING. Be prepared to spend some $'s
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8 track? maaate, that was a couple of years ago.
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Yeah ... 2-3 weeks ago I heard about something called wgs/ghs/some kinda tape thing. It's supposed to be better than Sony Beta! I'll believe that when I see it!
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Yeah, still got one of them old clunkers above the telly.
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hey, on this idea of getting the complete travel, well i checked mine and its about 2mm from top (oem var now), instead of cutting that side at all: wouldnt bending the ramp plate itself to make more of a progressive ramp, (bend all six ramps) do the same job and still stay intact??...i saw a ramp that had real steep ramps, seems like that may work????,....
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That's a real good idea! I think in theory it would work. Actually bending those ramp plates at exactly the same angle may prove to be very difficult though! The other thing to keep in mind is that the slides are between the ramps. To bend the ramps you would have to bend the slides as well. That would probably pull them in closer to the center and also change the angle so they may not slide properly. Sounds like you got some R&D to do Batman! ;)
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The variator I bought from scooter assassins has a modified ramp plate, that may be what makes it that bit better.
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hmmm, may be an idea huh?... hey sid does the inside of yours look like the oem?? (where rollers lay, etc)
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No, from memory the ramp plate was steeper, I did take some pics but it didnt really show the difference.
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hmm? wonder how bad off the oem inside ramps are compared to aftrmkt? maybe just a steeper ramp is needed... i found a kit like the one you have sid...crazy good prices, im like you, i need cheaper alternatives.. we live in a socialist place now also....lol
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OK Guuy's, There is a knock off point where WE know some things, and the engineers know something else! In the wild west days ANYTHING could work. If I were to try to improve a "whatever" brand it would have to be a CHEAP one~! (the squigley happened by accident?!) DON"T BUY CIGS> for 3 weeks, and buy a GOOD KIT! The quality of the steel involved is the deciding factor. To this day I have NOT seen ANYONE buy the kit I recommended. I LOVE to figure how to fix things, but I don't like to see trouble w/ easy cures. If you /anyone has a better circle/skuare....!!! (help me calothrix)
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Sorry mate, I am my own worst enemy. I stopped buying cigs 8 years ago, still cant buy good stuff, though Mrs. sid is going to get a good helmet.
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MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE2
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calm down zombie....lmao sorry to wind ur clock up, i had just ran across a site tgat had those same kits... you DO have very valid points...i was just lookin, that $450 price tag is what keeps scaring me and when you see a kit AND massive carb for $215, im like oh yeah!!!...lmao.. i was thinkin about the var when i seen that kit anyway, talking about bending ramp plate itself to get full travel....(im just goona get reed cage this go around).....oh and btw, how'd you know?? i'd love to quit, i hate them!!! im bored out here in this one red light town, so i smoke..lol got any ideas on quitting???
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I made the decision to quit, and quit. I won't bullsh** and say it was easy, it wasn't, but if you want to do it you just have to put your mind to it and do it.
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i thought it was good that im starting to hate them but i still pick them up, guess its not in my head fully... my mother quit cold turkey..
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Hippie grass! It also makes spending $1'000.00+ on scooter parts seem rational! I have approx $1'500.00 in parts. That was spent 2+ years ago. All I spend now is maintaince. ($60.00 a year)
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Hippie grass! It also makes spending $1'000.00+ on scooter parts seem rational!
..lmfao!!...makes you do that too...
:D
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OK Guuy's, There is a knock off point where WE know some things, and the engineers know something else! In the wild west days ANYTHING could work. If I were to try to improve a "whatever" brand it would have to be a CHEAP one~! (the squigley happened by accident?!) DON"T BUY CIGS> for 3 weeks, and buy a GOOD KIT! The quality of the steel involved is the deciding factor. To this day I have NOT seen ANYONE buy the kit I recommended. I LOVE to figure how to fix things, but I don't like to see trouble w/ easy cures. If you /anyone has a better circle/skuare....!!! (help me calothrix)
Like da man used to say, "you can pay me now or pay me later."
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..that same logic applies to even the incidental, preventive maintenance parts....don't buy unproven unless you want half-assed performance...and the opportunity to spend some more monies in the near future...
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that part i can verify... ;D used some rollers and springs , not happy...ordering malossi for these now