KymcoForum.com
General => Technical | How To => Topic started by: Lammy1000 on May 28, 2010, 11:24:33 AM
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My wife's Kymco is running great, however my Honda Helix is not. I replaced the rollers in the variator and put a new drive belt on. During the short test ride there were thumping noises and motor almost stalled, so upon inspection the outer variator face was ruined. The teeth that engage the crankshaft are toast. I have verified the oem belt is correct...it just won't properly spin the belt and clutch does not disengage properly. The clutch was working perfectly, so I did not remove...I believe the clutch is not at play. The variator face has little movement to allow belt to ride up and down the face, but this may be normal?? Thanks for any tips.
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Sounds like the nut may have spun loose, and allowed the var to strip on the crank. You should ALWAYS replace the Var nut, or use blue Lok Tite. If the nut was still tight, perhaps the var was never fully seated? or maybe forgot the boss?
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I secured the drive faces on the crankshaft without the belt and then tried to sqeeze the belt down into the faces. The pic shows the belt to be only able to ride the outer circumference. It's like the moveable drive has no real movement...looking on page 8-4 of the on-line manual it looks like the drive pulley collar is stepped away f/ the moveable face. This would allow more belt room, however, mine will not do this. Also, where the crankshaft goes through the oilseal on the case mine has a ring that projects out...is this supposed to be there?
I am currently looking at pic upload procedure.
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..look at page 8-8...did you assemble it in the order the diagram depicts?...
..it doesn't show a ring that would be next to the oil seal at the case...
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I do not see a pic that would show this ring on p. 8-8. I rechecked everything on this simple/robust design ( modern scooters in general).
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...that's what i'm saying...
:-\
..are you SURE you had everything assembled per the diagram??
..i ask because, if the scoot was running before you replaced the rollers and belt, then SOMETHING must have been out of order....
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...that's what i'm saying...
:-\
..are you SURE you had everything assembled per the diagram??
..i ask because, if the scoot was running before you replaced the rollers and belt, then SOMETHING must have been out of order....
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Yes, I hear you about running fine, then...
The sliders have a triangle shape on one end and a "u" shape on the other. I placed the triangle side into the housing because a triangle shape recess seemed to be there...is this correct? Thanks for your help.
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..i've never used sliders....yet.. ;)
..imma get me some soon...
..but that sounds right....
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...dude, i meant page 8-7...sorry...
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Oh Nooooo! Dre! You will see what went wrong.Let US know what you find
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I put Dr. Pulley sliders in my ZX50 this morning and the diagram shows to put them in a particular way, if I had not looked at that diagram I would have almost certainly put them in wrong through not knowing. The pointed end goes on top pointing into the centre.
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....sssso, you like the sliders!!!!!
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yes, like when I first put the new variator on, the power delivery is very smooth, in the short time I used the cheap rollers they wore flat spots on them, but they gave me an idea of what weights to go for. The only prob. so far is I don't seem to get the engine screaming like it should, might have to go lighter but will try the carb tune first. Yes, i like them. :) :)
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...i gotta try those...
..i MUST keep my 4t "screaming" if imma haul my big ass at any respectable speeds...
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This is getting really bizarre. I have the belt installed, utilizing the suggestions here and when the bike is started the belt stays in the high speed position. That is, the belt stays near the outer circumference of the drive faces and the inner circumference of the clutch faces. Its as if the movable face on the variator will not allow the belt to slip inward, reducing belt tension on the clutch. I am very perplexed, please offer advice.
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...take some pics if you could....
..okay, so you put on the moving pulley and ramp / roller / face seal cover assembly...slip the belt onto the shaft..at this point, the belt should be against the moveable drive face pulley, and hugged around the shaft collar....
..next, install the non-moveable drive face, washer and nut, making sure the drive face is seated against the collar...should squeeze against the belt...
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From what I read of this it sounds like there is something stopping the movable face from going back as it should, maybe a slider turned during install or something else, it would be worth going back over it again and checking all the details.
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..i agree, something is out of place....
..that's a really compact looking variator...
..wonder if sliders will even work right in it....
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I have missed something, I don't see any pics or links...???
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..i googled the service manual...
"http://mpsracing.net/helix-manual/08-07.html"
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Cheers, there appear to be two bearings? that are not noted.
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..i think those are seals...
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OH! :-[
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..he also said he has a "ring" (first post) against the oil seal that i do not see anywhere in the diagram...
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...look at page 8-5...
..that's one tight variator...
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Yes, I had noticed that but I had not seen the diagram. Deffinately sounds like the face is not moving
maybe incorrect size rollers/sliders? Just another possibility. Maybe put it back to original and see what that does, get a better idea of what is happening?
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...that's a good idea, if the original rollers are intact..
..at my first roller change, there wasnt very much left of the rollers...
..30,000km...
..there's pics of them here, i think...somewhere around july 09...
..it was ugly....
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that is tight, maybe sliders won't work in there, as you look at the pic the point on the slider goes in toward the centre so maybe not letting the variator retract fully.
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..i think you r right....
here's that pic...
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Maaate, was that your's, I bet you really loved your new rollers.
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..yup...there's no telling what all that would have become, if my belt had not broken...
...i was the ultimate newbie...
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Here's a pic from Dr. Pulley site.
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The sliders have a triangle shape on one end and a "u" shape on the other. I placed the triangle side into the housing because a triangle shape recess seemed to be there...is this correct? Thanks for your help.
..wonder if he installed them correctly....
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When I first saw that I thought I put mine in wrong but then I realised there was something behind, it is a cut away view. Here is the label that came in the pack.
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...i think he installed his at a position of @ +90 degrees clockwise to that pic....
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Ah, see.
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...i meant clockwise...
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I think he definitely put them in upside down. When my variator notching experiment went awry, the slider got flipped upside down and it did exactly what Lammy is describing. It got stuck in high gear!
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I think he definitely put them in upside down.
...the voice of experience lammy..
....we've all been speculating up to this point....
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Helix is up and running again!! I was allowing the ramp to move outward during install and the fixed face was stuck in the high speed position, preventing belt from moving toward the centerline/low speed position. Thanks for all the replies. I am going to put a few more miles on this machine. By the way, why is it that afetr getting into scooters 2 months ago I rarely want to ride my Yama FZ1?
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...awesome lammy!!!!
;D
..it's a bug...we all have caught it!!
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Bike is running great except when starting from a stop there is alot of shuddering/bogging down. I did not touch the clutch or even remove it during this maintenance period and the machine only did the normal small amount of scooter shudder prior to this.
I removed the clutch bell and cleaned that and the pads which were just in tolerance. The bike runs as strong as ever at speeds >16 mph, but below that it shudders and feels like the engine isn't pulling enough rpm's.
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It may be the clutch, or belt slipping. The quicker closing of the var may bee adding extra load that you did not have before. You may want to try adding fly springs, and a contra spring to finish out the cvt
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Have you just now installed the sliders? Could they be slightly different weight from stock rollers? Heavier, maybe?
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The sliders are oem.
I am going to take Randy Pozzi's advice "Any shuddering to the clutch can be eliminated by scratching off the burn marks on the clutch shoes with 0000 steel wool. Any further shudder will eliminate itself."
I will let you know how it works.
Also, the scooter seems like the rpm's do not rise fast enough to get into the powerband when first starting out. As if the belt is riding too high in the variator or could the clutch spring sagged after several episodes of clamping the clutches faces apart during belt reinstallations?
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...belt...new belt may not be an exact replacement...
..read my "95mm variator" posts...in the agility 50 board...
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The motor really bogs when trying to start from a standstill while the transmission shudders. If trying to start while on a steep uphill from it barely moves, at least, till I get to 16mph, then all is well. Dangerous in traffic when starting from a stopped position...ugh.
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...it really sounds like heavy sliders to me tho.....
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I still think it would be worth putting it back to original to try it and see if there are any problems, that way you will find out if the trouble is anywhere else, (clutch, bearings, etc.).
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..that would be a good way to tell if it's the clutch for sho!
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...lammy, do you have the original bits??
..are they in decent shape??
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I have the original drive belt, but threw out the rollers which were flat spotted. New belt is thicker/shorter which may be riding too high on the variator faces to get enough rpm for initial movement,
and, likewise, prematurely causing the clutch faces to seperate prematurely, hence as you said I'm trying to start out in the wrong "gear". I may try the old belt or put a few hundred miles on this belt to break it in.
It's early in the am here, so please excuse the dumb question: Are the sliders onstalled into the variator prior to the rollers? I don't have these parts in front of me, but I do not think even I could screw this up. Also, the sliders are triangular shaped on one end and I put this side down into the varaiator...is this correcrt? Thanks f/ everyones help.
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That is the wrong way Lammy. Go back 1 page, and there is a pict of the correct way. Also be sure the var stays tight together while you install it as the sliders can fall out of position.
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Zombie, You are so right. The sliders were incorrectly installed...instead of placing them on the ramp I placed them down into the moveable face which limited its movement to the "lower" gears. Yes, I feel really stupid. Scooter runs great, with surprising acceleration from a dead stop.
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No need to feel stupid, it is good to work out the problems and have the help of so many people. Good to hear you got it sorted. With regards to the belt, I wouldn't recommend using a shorter belt, this will restrict the variator closing and you may not get your full top speed.
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...lammy, we've all done things to our scoots that we aren't proud of...it's a learning process...
..the end result is what really matters...
..scoot on brother!!
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All's well that ends well Lammy. Keep on posting Bro!
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I just realised, he is not talking about sliding rollers, he is talking about the sliding bushes on the ramp plate. Geez, I'm a goose sometimes. :)
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Good Goose!