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Scooters - 50cc => Super 8 => Topic started by: netlag on May 15, 2018, 11:21:38 PM

Title: 2012 50cc Super 8 2T Oil Pump
Post by: netlag on May 15, 2018, 11:21:38 PM
Been advised that my oil pump is no longer functioning, so have been premixing since then

Scoot has 11.5k mileage... so it seems probable that it is a mechanical issue and will probably just order another pump.

Before I order... thought to double check my oil bleeding technique against what others commonly do.

Also, who seems to be the lowest cost dealer for Kymco parts?

Title: Re: 2012 50cc Super 8 2T Oil Pump
Post by: netlag on May 18, 2018, 02:02:07 AM
Argh. For some reason my oil light is now illuminated and the resivuor seems to be a little less enpty from a day ago. All since removing the lines from the carb a day ago.

Really not sure what to think about this since it has not been working since it was primed two weeks ago. Again, today the light is suddenly illuminated and there seems to be less oil in the tank.

Is this behavior common with bad, or going bad pump?

Lastly, since I have one on order... How difficult is it to remove replace the pump?

Quick glance at the project leads me to believe the cross-member above the pump would be in the way. Must the engine subframe be seperated from frame to allow clearnce for the pump's camshaft during a remove and installation?
Title: Re: 2012 50cc Super 8 2T Oil Pump
Post by: eamartin on May 18, 2018, 03:01:55 AM
Did you cap or plug the oil line from the pump to the carb?  Is there an oily mess down there someplace?
Title: Re: 2012 50cc Super 8 2T Oil Pump
Post by: netlag on May 18, 2018, 03:50:54 AM
Nope to either EAMatin. And, the light went off again. Was probably wishfull thinking on my part or just the light's reaction to the off-level the center stand produced.
Title: Re: 2012 50cc Super 8 2T Oil Pump
Post by: netlag on May 19, 2018, 02:23:33 PM
bump
Title: Re: 2012 50cc Super 8 2T Oil Pump
Post by: netlag on May 21, 2018, 02:34:57 PM
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Title: Re: 2012 50cc Super 8 2T Oil Pump
Post by: CROSSBOLT on May 21, 2018, 04:01:56 PM
Usually when there is no response on this forum it is because we don't know the answer. I don't know the specifics of this scooter but did have a Yamaha YM-1 2t motorcycle in the 60's with "oil injection" that worked really well. That quart + tank would last a month of everyday riding! Now, if they would have had an ignition system that worked as well as the lube system, that would have been a really great bike! Had plenty of advice to remove that pump and go back to mixing. All those jokers were afraid the pump would fail and fry the engine. Well, it never failed and I put 20000+ miles on her before I parked it. How do these people you are talking to know this pump is not working?
Title: Re: 2012 50cc Super 8 2T Oil Pump
Post by: netlag on May 24, 2018, 03:36:33 AM
Usually when there is no response on this forum it is because we don't know the answer. I don't know the specifics of this scooter but did have a Yamaha YM-1 2t motorcycle in the 60's with "oil injection" that worked really well. That quart + tank would last a month of everyday riding! Now, if they would have had an ignition system that worked as well as the lube system, that would have been a really great bike! Had plenty of advice to remove that pump and go back to mixing. All those jokers were afraid the pump would fail and fry the engine. Well, it never failed and I put 20000+ miles on her before I parked it. How do these people you are talking to know this pump is not working?

Ahh, ok. Figured someone would have replaced one of these by now, or at least have had more experience troubleshooting an oiling issue on a 50 cc then me.

History is that the issue was determined after a sort of field test by a shop-owner "mechanic". For some reason I was curious about the diagnosis, so thought to double check it as I plan to do a remove / replace soon.

Method I chose to determine this IIRC was checking all of the lines by blowing through them. Priming lines that needed it. Checking the gravity line from the oil tank. Checking vacuum at manifold.. etc.

Ordered the pump as it seems there is no oil being pumped/sucked past the oiler.

Won't be able to check the gear until it is pulled.

Anyways... Understand that the oiler is not serviceable either for this motor. So, suppose it will be what it is to remove and replace.

I am premixing until then.

Title: Re: 2012 50cc Super 8 2T Oil Pump
Post by: Chris0381 on May 25, 2018, 11:57:03 PM
Oil pumps rarely go because they are lubed constantly. The manual gives a somewhat idea of how to bleed the pump. But at the end of the day if you crank or run the scooter briefly with the oil line disconnected from the carb, you should see a dribble of oil coming out. The oil comes out of the bottom of the reservoir so getting the air out of the line going into the pump should be fairly easy using gravity (letting the oil run thru the line via gravity then plugging it into the inlet side of the oil pump).
Title: Re: 2012 50cc Super 8 2T Oil Pump
Post by: netlag on May 26, 2018, 01:56:58 PM
Oil pumps rarely go because they are lubed constantly. The manual gives a somewhat idea of how to bleed the pump. But at the end of the day if you crank or run the scooter briefly with the oil line disconnected from the carb, you should see a dribble of oil coming out. The oil comes out of the bottom of the reservoir so getting the air out of the line going into the pump should be fairly easy using gravity (letting the oil run thru the line via gravity then plugging it into the inlet side of the oil pump).

thanks. IIRC dribble test produced nil too. Guess I did cover all of the basics.
Title: Re: 2012 50cc Super 8 2T Oil Pump
Post by: eamartin on May 26, 2018, 03:32:32 PM
thanks. IIRC dribble test produced nil too. Guess I did cover all of the basics.
When I have done "the dribble test", if the cable was not properly adjusted I might not get any oil from the pump at idle.  By running at higher rpm's i would start to get oil.  But I don't get a dribble.  While my notes are not in front of me, my recollection is of maybe 6 or 8 drops per minute.  It takes a lot of patience to test this.   And if there is any air in the lines it takes quite a while before the drips begin.
Title: Re: 2012 50cc Super 8 2T Oil Pump
Post by: Chris0381 on May 26, 2018, 11:32:56 PM
When I have done "the dribble test", if the cable was not properly adjusted I might not get any oil from the pump at idle.  By running at higher rpm's i would start to get oil.  But I don't get a dribble.  While my notes are not in front of me, my recollection is of maybe 6 or 8 drops per minute.  It takes a lot of patience to test this.   And if there is any air in the lines it takes quite a while before the drips begin.

Thanks for mentioning this as I forgot. There should be marking on the oil pump cable cam that line up with another mark if the oil pump cable tension (length) is correct. The cam has to be operated (turned) a certain amount before oil will be allowed to flow to the carb. There is a cable adjustment screw I believe to get the correct cable tension (length). If the cable is too loose, the cam will not be operated enough to allow oil to flow to the carb.
Title: Re: 2012 50cc Super 8 2T Oil Pump
Post by: netlag on May 27, 2018, 12:04:11 AM
Thanks for mentioning this as I forgot. There should be marking on the oil pump cable cam that line up with another mark if the oil pump cable tension (length) is correct. The cam has to be operated (turned) a certain amount before oil will be allowed to flow to the carb. There is a cable adjustment screw I believe to get the correct cable tension (length). If the cable is too loose, the cam will not be operated enough to allow oil to flow to the carb.

Thanks for the info. Alot of info that is not in the service manual!

Will check where the alignment marks are before removal.

Don't recall there being any sort of adjuster for cable tension, but will check that out when the box is out too...

Will be checking the new oiler out to understand the cam-bracket adjustment mentioned.

Title: Re: 2012 50cc Super 8 2T Oil Pump
Post by: Chris0381 on May 27, 2018, 10:19:31 PM
There are a few gurus on here that I dont see much any more that did mention, you should upjet once you mod the snorkel and exhaust. 85 seemed a sweet spot . I up jetted even more when I opened up the box and never bothered to down jet again.
Title: Re: 2012 50cc Super 8 2T Oil Injector
Post by: netlag on May 28, 2018, 06:55:57 PM
There are a few gurus on here that I dont see much any more that did mention, you should upjet once you mod the snorkel and exhaust. 85 seemed a sweet spot . I up jetted even more when I opened up the box and never bothered to down jet again.
.

Removed and replaced the pump today.

Not sure how the "drip" test works for you all with no vacuum. Found that by removing the plate on the old one..these things are really like a meter vs pump as there is no push. Oil is vacuumed to the intake manf and the carb. No wonder there is no flow, drip, or drop. Learned that there is a  metering dial in the pump which turns only slightly when the cam is turned...not enough to create any sort of "push".

Supoose also that the old pump had some garbage in the chamber under the brass fitting (outlet). Not going to bother wasting wd-40 to check if the blindspot can be cleaned.

Since installing can see that engine is getting oil now from both the pump and  premix. Thankfully, I only have 1/4 tank premix left.

Suppose next project will be the 85 jet, so back to my tuning post I go.
Title: Re: 2012 50cc Super 8 2T Oil Pump
Post by: Chris0381 on July 04, 2018, 09:54:57 AM
I think I may want to get a new oil pump myself. Where did you buy yours and how did you test to see if its working ?
Title: Re: 2012 50cc Super 8 2T Oil Pump
Post by: netlag on July 04, 2018, 12:33:28 PM
Unstand the only way is to pull the unit; run extended lines to the vacuum and use a drill to turn the gear.

Found that pump does not actually pump (push) at all. The gear turns a disc that simply meters an amount of oil that is vacuumed (pulled) through the lines.

Mine could have had a block behind the brass fitting, but with no access to the journal behind it... I just ordered another as Kymco states this unit is not serviciable.

UnitedCycle was the cheapest place that I found that uses the Kymco parts dealer API. Think that United had a coupon (15%?) and also free ship over $50.00.

15100-keb7-e000 ( superceeds 15100-keb7-e00)
https://goo.gl/FMwFmB
Title: Re: 2012 50cc Super 8 2T Oil Pump
Post by: Chris0381 on July 05, 2018, 11:42:23 AM
Yep after a bit of research, I see it just allows a certain amount of oil to bypass depending on the position of the cam.

My new top is work fairly good. I have put 100 miles on it and performance is par with a slightly less performance on hill tops. I expect this to get better as it breaks in.

So what I am doing now is putting 2 oz of Amsoil Dominator in the gas along with the injection. When I see the reservoir getting lower, I will know the pump is working and the probably will still put 1 oz of oil in the gas for safe measure along with the injection. Now to do this I understand on need to upjet so the mixture flows thru the jets at a similar volume as before. Switching or using premix wo upjetting can cause a lean mixture condition because the fuel will be now thicker than before. I think having my 95 main jet in place will be OK.

Right now I am not seeing any real excess smoke maybe a bit on cold start up and the cycle seems to be running ok. Amsoil claims their oils are ok for break in periods also.

I guess at some point one wants to wash out the jets and check the plugs here and there for signs of over enrichment when going from injection to premix or both at the same time.

Once, I see the pump is working, I will make sure there is no slack in the cable when the throttle is fully open and use 1 oz of quality premix as a precaution.