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General => General Discussion => Topic started by: PaulF on June 17, 2018, 06:51:11 AM
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Although most of ride just scooters it is very important to learn and also cornering. I prefer the old 'go in slow and come out faster'
https://motorbikewriter.com/practise-counter-steering/ (https://motorbikewriter.com/practise-counter-steering/)
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Gotta be honest with you here....if I were to think about the particular scientific aspects of counter steering while dodging that "sleeping" cat which just emerged from beneath the car in front of me ---- I'd end up in the shrubbery every time!
We grew up riding bikes as kids...you learned to miss that apple sized rock - or once again you're going to lose more skin off of your knees and elbows!
It's instinctual --- not riding science for me.
The whole ballet of pushing and pulling on the bars is....beyond me.
"Don't hit the cat!"....is what works for me.
(During my two day MS safety course....counter steering discussions were replaced by ,"don't hit the cones!". Worked a treat for all of us)
Stig, respectfully
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EVERYONE who isn't (the "indestructible" teenager who just got out of MSF classes and decided that SLPR doesn't really need to be followed because ITS ALL ABOUT GOING FAST, NOT GETTING THERE ALIVE) slows down before entering any curve where, due to the traffic or roadside obstructions, you can't see 3-4 seconds ahead.
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And regarding that video -- when that truck appeared, nothing would have saved that rider.
His riding speed and style were as if he was on a private road. Period.
Stig
Bad decision to do that....probably had ridden this road many times and found no traffic.
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Gotta be honest with you here....if I were to think about the particular scientific aspects of counter steering while dodging that "sleeping" cat which just emerged from beneath the car in front of me ---- I'd end up in the shrubbery every time!
We grew up riding bikes as kids...you learned to miss that apple sized rock - or once again you're going to lose more skin off of your knees and elbows!
It's instinctual --- not riding science for me.
The whole ballet of pushing and pulling on the bars is....beyond me.
"Don't hit the cat!"....is what works for me.
(During my two day MS safety course....counter steering discussions were replaced by ,"don't hit the cones!". Worked a treat for all of us)
Stig, respectfully
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Many riders who "ride by instinct" but don't understand what they are really doing end up doing the wrong thing in an emergency and crash when there was no reason to crash. Braking and steering are the two most commonly screwed up skills out there. I do think about countersteering when I'm out practicing on a twisty road. I sometimes practice avoiding things on the road with hard countersteering. By practicing it, countersteering is instinct when I need it. Many riders do run off the road in a curve when all they had to to was countersteer or they run into something in the road that could easily have been avoided.
I see discussions about braking on forums all the time and it's obvious a large percentage or riders are pretty clueless on that as well. They brake "by instinct." That may work in normal situations but not in an emergency. Now that there is ABS on most new bikes that is no longer as big of an issue. There is no mechanical device like ABS to save those who can't steer.
OH, and I forgot another important skill: Look where you want to go. Instinct is to look at what you want to avoid. This is a skill that must be understood and practiced or it won't happen in an emergency.
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Many riders who "ride by instinct" but don't understand what they are really doing end up doing the wrong thing in an emergency and crash when there was no reason to crash. Braking and steering are the two most commonly screwed up skills out there. I do think about countersteering when I'm out practicing on a twisty road. I sometimes practice avoiding things on the road with hard countersteering. By practicing it, countersteering is instinct when I need it. Many riders do run off the road in a curve when all they had to to was countersteer or they run into something in the road that could easily have been avoided.
I see discussions about braking on forums all the time and it's obvious a large percentage or riders are pretty clueless on that as well. They brake "by instinct." That may work in normal situations but not in an emergency. Now that there is ABS on most new bikes that is no longer as big of an issue. There is no mechanical device like ABS to save those who can't steer.
OH, and I forgot another important skill: Look where you want to go. Instinct is to look at what you want to avoid. This is a skill that must be understood and practiced or it won't happen in an emergency.
Although this does not have anything to do with countersteering, it follows the same thought process. I am one of those that did not have the experience to "follow my instinct". I took the MSF classes and was told the proper way to handle emergency situations. I did not practice what I was taught. Unfortunately for me, my instinct kicked in while turning into a driveway and a car blocked my entry. Instinct told me to STOP. I braked while in a turn and came off.
After they turned pointed my leg in the right direction, and months of healing, I now practice emergency braking, as well as counter steering on every ride.
I can think of a few things that I did wrong that day. I had a lot of couch time to reflect.
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Yes, ride safely. Call it whatever you want, countersteering, looking where you want to go, or whatever, but the single best way of helping yourself ride safely is this: SLOW DOWN.
Closely followed by: Keep your head on a swivel and increase your situational awareness, have an escape route, and never take anything for granted.
Did I mention, SLOW DOWN"?
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agreed, slow speed practice helps with proper steering
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What's the point of having a case for your camera if it just pops off like that one? :-)
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Oh, huge OW, OWOW! PPPPP = Prior Planning Prevents Poor Performance. Usta have one more P but I've been practicing not saying those words! This rider did not plan how he was going to take any of those curves and, as already pointed out, did not plan that anyone would be coming his way on the same road. Flight training was fun! You were taught how to fly out of trouble and in the process how to avoid it in the first place. Controls, at first, made no sense. Like the stick or yoke was turn and speed control, throttle/power lever was up and down and rudder was not for turning except on the ground. Counter steering is the same deal. They touch on it in MSF BRC but planning and recovery must wait for advance class.
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Yes, ride safely. Call it whatever you want, countersteering, looking where you want to go, or whatever, but the single best way of helping yourself ride safely is this: SLOW DOWN.
Closely followed by: Keep your head on a swivel and increase your situational awareness, have an escape route, and never take anything for granted.
Did I mention, SLOW DOWN"?
This only works if you are going too fast. Otherwise it's a good way to get run over.
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Although this does not have anything to do with countersteering, it follows the same thought process. I am one of those that did not have the experience to "follow my instinct". I took the MSF classes and was told the proper way to handle emergency situations. I did not practice what I was taught. Unfortunately for me, my instinct kicked in while turning into a driveway and a car blocked my entry. Instinct told me to STOP. I braked while in a turn and came off.
After they turned pointed my leg in the right direction, and months of healing, I now practice emergency braking, as well as counter steering on every ride.
I can think of a few things that I did wrong that day. I had a lot of couch time to reflect.
I have around a half a million miles of riding experience in all kinds of conditions and on all kinds of bikes. Occasionally my instinct still tries to get me to do the wrong thing. So I try to understand what and why I am doing things and practice. For the most part this works but I also know I have to keep working at it.
Also keep in mind that the MSF is a very basic course and some of the stuff they teach is not really correct. It's a good way to get started but if you want to be a good rider you have to keep learning after completing the MSF course.
One of the things that has improved my riding skills is participating in Gymkhana. This isn't just getting around a bunch of cones. If you are doing it right you will push yourself and your bike nearly as hard as you would on a racetrack, just at much lower speeds.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Favorites/i-2TRNq2r/0/bb20dd3e/L/gymk%20%283%29-XL-L.jpg)
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(https://photos.smugmug.com/Favorites/i-ZnnbzX4/0/bce7f1e9/L/gymk%20%284%29-XL-L.jpg)
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Yes, Klav! Gymkhana for two wheels! What an idea! Where and when?
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The truck crash video was a subject of long discussion on the BeginnerBiker.org forum about a year ago. Two things were discussed concerning the video about what doomed the rider - his speed and his fixation on the truck. Counter-steering could probably have saved him, but his fixation on the truck glued him to where his bike would go.
Speed-wise he had little time to seek an escape route. To his left the road looked like it was skirting a cliff. Bad choice to go there if he wanted to avoid a hit. By trying to go to the right, and at his speed the gyroscopic forces of his tires fought to swing him back in the opposite way. Ironically, at his speed if he had hit his turn wide by hugging the right or angling himself so that he could try to see the vanishing point of the curve as he came around it may have given him a half second more to react to the coming truck. That’s pure speculation on my part. He was going pretty fast and in the other forum it was thought that there was another rider ahead of him who he may have been trying to catch up with.
Regardless, the tactic of going into his curve slow and out fast may have saved him. I’m not a fan of speeding on unfamiliar roads. You just never know what’s around the next bend.
Learning counter-steering isn’t enough in the BRC. I failed my first time taking it. Years later when I decided to try again I practiced emergency braking and counter-steering for weeks before the course. However, what really helped me grasp the skills was the most fundamental principle - look where you want to go. I never looked at the cones in the course, I looked at the end of where I wanted my bike to go and the bike did the rest.
That skilled combined with the others - counter steering, in slow/out fast/ emergency swerving and braking made a huge difference on how I performed the first time I took the BRC and the second attempt where I passed. Instinctive riding is best when it’s reinforced muscle memory.
- Wolf
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Yes, Klav! Gymkhana for two wheels! What an idea! Where and when?
We typically have one or two gymkhanas in Alabama every year. I wish there were more but that's it. There was one in April in Leeds Alabama (Near Barber Motorsports park and museum). Unfortunately I couldn't make that one. It's always fun and it's FREE!! Here's a link to the last one: http://www.motorcyclealabama.com/rides/index.php?topic=2754.0 (http://www.motorcyclealabama.com/rides/index.php?topic=2754.0)
Another one I made it to last year: http://www.motorcyclealabama.com/rides/index.php?topic=2149.15 (http://www.motorcyclealabama.com/rides/index.php?topic=2149.15)
I'll try to remember post up when there is another one.
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The Alabama Motorcycle Safety Center has put on a gymkhana in March most of the previous years. I went to three of those. They normally had a number of motorcycle cops show up. They were real impressive to watch. Here's the last one I went to:
http://advrider.com/index.php?threads/you-only-live-twice.1042598/page-45 (http://advrider.com/index.php?threads/you-only-live-twice.1042598/page-45)
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Yes, ride safely. Call it whatever you want, countersteering, looking where you want to go, or whatever, but the single best way of helping yourself ride safely is this: SLOW DOWN.
Closely followed by: Keep your head on a swivel and increase your situational awareness, have an escape route, and never take anything for granted.
Did I mention, SLOW DOWN"?
Yep, from the newspaper in my town - too much speed causes most bike wrecks - followed at some distance by left turning cars.
Bikes just flat riding off the roads.
Still, too many words here.
respectfully - KISS
Slow down and "Don't hit the 🐱!"
Stig
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Many riders who "ride by instinct" but don't understand what they are really doing end up doing the wrong thing in an emergency and crash when there was no reason to crash. Braking and steering are the two most commonly screwed up skills out there. I do think about countersteering when I'm out practicing on a twisty road. I sometimes practice avoiding things on the road with hard countersteering. By practicing it, countersteering is instinct when I need it. Many riders do run off the road in a curve when all they had to to was countersteer or they run into something in the road that could easily have been avoided.
I see discussions about braking on forums all the time and it's obvious a large percentage or riders are pretty clueless on that as well. They brake "by instinct." That may work in normal situations but not in an emergency. Now that there is ABS on most new bikes that is no longer as big of an issue. There is no mechanical device like ABS to save those who can't steer.
OH, and I forgot another important skill: Look where you want to go. Instinct is to look at what you want to avoid. This is a skill that must be understood and practiced or it won't happen in an emergency.
That's good. ;)
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He was going under 50. I consider that to be a pretty easy pace for that kind of road.
He WAS being pretty cavalier about staying in his lane. But it actually almost looks like if he hadn't reacted to the truck at all, there might have been no accident. As soon as he saw it and reacted to it (which was quite a ways off), he started pushing himself closer to its path.
This definitely wasn't an unavoidable accident. He could have trivially drifted back into his lane and all would be fine.
And there is no doubt in my mind that this is a demonstration of incorrect steering technique. That's what all that wobbling was about it (which again, started with the truck pretty far away), and the video later shows it clearly in slow motion.
Instincts will get you most of the way there, but you have to understand what's going on and practice it consciously in order to push your ability to take tighter, faster turns and to react properly in a dangerous situations.
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On a completely different note, target fixation is a thing for musical instruments too. It can cause you to make mistakes, or play as you hear it in your head, exactly the way it works on motorcycles.
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He was going under 50. I consider that to be a pretty easy pace for that kind of road.
He WAS being pretty cavalier about staying in his lane. But it actually almost looks like if he hadn't reacted to the truck at all, there might have been no accident. As soon as he saw it and reacted to it (which was quite a ways off), he started pushing himself closer to its path.
This definitely wasn't an unavoidable accident. He could have trivially drifted back into his lane and all would be fine.
And there is no doubt in my mind that this is a demonstration of incorrect steering technique. That's what all that wobbling was about it (which again, started with the truck pretty far away), and the video later shows it clearly in slow motion.
Instincts will get you most of the way there, but you have to understand what's going on and practice it consciously in order to push your ability to take tighter, faster turns and to react properly in a dangerous situations.
This was a totally avoidable accident. I agree that he wasn't going too fast......well he wouldn't have been going too fast if he knew how to countersteer. I think his instincts are exactly what got him into trouble, that and a lack of knowledge. Almost all non riders and a fairly large percentage of riders think that you steer right to go right and steer left to go left. So when he saw the truck part of his instinct tried to turn the bars right and part of it to turn left. I used to tend to do the same thing. When I was a fairly new sportbike rider in Southern California I used to fight myself in the curves making it seem like the bike didn't want to turn. It never caused anything like what was in the video but at one point I got so worn out on a ride trying to keep up with friends that I decided to quit group rides for a while. I went out and thought about what I was doing and practiced. It didn't take long before I was riding much better. I know I normally rode much faster than the guy in the video.
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When I was a fairly new sportbike rider in Southern California I used to fight myself in the curves making it seem like the bike didn't want to turn.
This was basically my experience. I didn't try to make it turn by turning the handlebars like in the video, but when it was necessary to make sharper, faster turns it was like I was stuck.
It took deliberate practice to push through that limitation, and it took an understanding of what's going on in order to deliberately practice it. I don't need to stop and think about what I'm doing or how it works to avoid the cat. I've already taken the time to work it out and choreograph the movements, so now it's just by default how I get around.
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" I took the MSF classes and was told the proper way to handle emergency situations....."
I too took the basic rider course some years ago after many years of riding, thinking correctly that I was probably doing many things wrong. Afterwards, though, I began to think about the the class instruction regarding countersteering (push left to go left and all that). It occurred to me that countersteering really doesn't come into play until the machine is up to speed (not sure what speed, probably depends on machine) and that if you push left at 3 mph you'll go right. This was not explained in my particular class and could confuse a newby.