KymcoForum.com
General => Technical | How To => Topic started by: whiskers626 on August 04, 2019, 12:09:00 PM
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Hello all, I have a 2013 kymco like 200i, it only has 500 miles and been garage kept, was running fine one day and went to take it for a spin and now it cranks and then dies after about 5 seconds, I can’t for the life of me figure out what could be wrong. I have a service manual but it doesn’t tell me much, any ideas?????
Thanks
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Need more input. Stig is the resident guru on Like 200i and he will be here shortly asking for more information like how long did it sit before attempting to start, was there any Seafoam or Stabil added to gas, was the battery charged before start attempt, was the gas cap opened before start, how old is the fuel. Stuff like that...
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Add fresh fuel and try again. Check the battery voltage using a meter with the headlight on, if it drops below 12V in a few seconds it's too weak .
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Let's start with easy stuff....
Kill switch in the run position? (the RED switch)
Has scooter gotten wet since last ride?
Is it very hot where you are?
Tried starting with gas cap off?
Could you post us a video of your starting attempts?
Vibration of running engine causing loose spark plug cap to disconnect? Is cap tight?
Fires always and quickly - then shuts off after a few seconds, or....please describe more fully?
Stig
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I have tried starting with the gas cap off, when I did and turn the key on and the fuel pump started I notice small bubble in the gas tank, it is very hot here, the scooter has never been wet, I’ve checked the air breather and can’t find anything wrong, the last time I rode it it was fine and I didn’t touch it for about a month then came to ride it and this is happening. I may need to change the fuel I have not tried that yet. No seafoM or any additive has been added. I put a new spark plug in but it did not fix anything. Yes the red on switch is on. I tried to attach a video but it’s too large
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It will start and then dies after a few seconds
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When starting the engine fully open the throttle. This is a Kymco procedure to reduce engine flooding and clear the combustion chamber.
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At mousejunks tried starting with the throttle fully open it wouldn’t start then tried without the throttle open and it started and died a few seconds later as usual
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Can you start it with throttle closed, then rev it sightly as soon as it starts or hold the throttle slightly open
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It will start with the throttle closed but if I give it throttle it will rev up but only for a second and stall, with or without throttle it stalls after a few seconds
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Can you start it with throttle closed, then rev it sightly as soon as it starts or hold the throttle slightly open
At mousejunks tried starting with the throttle fully open it wouldn’t start then tried without the throttle open and it started and died a few seconds later as usual
Whiskers, what country?
If in USA, it's not the gas.
Not your plug, if can crank for long time it's not your battery. You hear fuel pump, so not that.
Starts and dies....
One crazy thought: disconnect battery please. Turn key on, don't try to start. . Wait. Reconnect battery. Now try to start.
Thought #2: turn key on, don't try to start, wait 10 seconds, now give full throttle and hold 10 seconds. Let go, wait 5 seconds, turn key off. Now try normal start using no throttle....just key on, pull both brake levers, push start button. Any better?
I'm thinking ECU (brain) needs clearing. If you have good battery and good plug, good coil connections - Something electrical is happening, telling fuel to stop flowing through injector.
Thought #3: open battery cover. Turn the key on, do not start, touch the pink wire to the frame to ground it (use a short piece of wire to do this if necessary). Turn off the key. Now start.
In my opinion, letting it sit for weeks should only effect battery strength....nothing else. But, maybe repeated start attempts has confused ECU.?
I do not think it is a serious fault ....unless ECU has died. Highly unlikely.
Give us report back please.
Stig
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@stig thank you I will try all that in just a little while and get back to you promptly
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@stig I tried everything on the list and still doing the same thing. I should not that I do use a battery tender. Not sure if that makes a difference. I did notice after doing all of that, that the negative battery terminal was warm/hot to the touch. I do have another spark plug but it is a c7hsa it does not have the r in the part number. Should I try it? I’m at a loss, it wants to crank but it keeps stalling after only 2 to 3 seconds. I’m baffled.
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Please check this Ground Wire - we've seen these come loose....
On your newish scooter it should be a gold colored 5mm hex head screw.
If it's loose could bounce upon starting.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Hnm2t7Vq/GROUNDWIRE.jpg)
Engine quitting after a start can be caused by air leaks in one of the two boots connected to either end of the throttle body.
Look for looseness of either boot.
Throttle body...
(https://i.postimg.cc/3xhZ5G1W/0000-LIKE-4.jpg)
Snorkle from the airfilter...
(https://i.postimg.cc/cCw8FsvP/Throttlebodyairintake.jpg)
Intake manifold clamps...
(https://i.postimg.cc/Qx7qzDL8/Throttlebody.jpg)
DO you have another known-good 12V bike/scooter battery you could set on the foot panel, hook up and try?
Stig
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I tried eveything except that little ground wire in the pic, I will get at it later today and let you know, also I do not have a extra battery, I may just have to buy one regardless, like I said it is a 2013 but only has 500 miles, but has always had a tender attached to the battery when not in use. So we will see.
Thanks
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I'd do all Stig has mentioned and definitely a new battery as if its been in the bike since 2013 as it really is due a new one, tender or no tender. If its hot where you are also check that the choke isn't stuck on, some of these chokes ain't great and if its running rich then opening the throttle will just cause it to bog and die on a warm engine. Put up a video if you can so everyone here can hear the engine as we could be clutching at straws otherwise. Is there any other things like does there seem to be more smoke than there usually is? Have you checked that the spark plug itself hasn't rattled slightly loose? It can be very hard to diagnose a bike with just text to rely on ;D
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I'd do all Stig has mentioned and definitely a new battery as if its been in the bike since 2013 as it really is due a new one, tender or no tender. If its hot where you are also check that the choke isn't stuck on, some of these chokes ain't great and if its running rich then opening the throttle will just cause it to bog and die on a warm engine. Put up a video if you can so everyone here can hear the engine as we could be clutching at straws otherwise. Is there any other things like does there seem to be more smoke than there usually is? Have you checked that the spark plug itself hasn't rattled slightly loose? It can be very hard to diagnose a bike with just text to rely on ;D
This is a fuel injected engine. No choke. All other comments and suggestions spot on.
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Thanks for the correction CROSSBOLT, not familiar with these bikes so didn't know. The few Kymco bikes I've had in our workshop including a 2015 Kpipe have been carb so just assumed ;D
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@stig I found the small ground wire, and it was good and right, tried tightening the boots from the air breather, now I am waiting til Monday until a new battery gets here. And I will let you know if that does any good. Thanks for all your help.
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@alpha and crossbolt! Waiting on a new battery now, I tried posting a video but can’t get the video small enough to upload on this site. It’s the weirdest thing it was running fine and went to ride it and bamn wouldn’t stay running smh
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@alpha and crossbolt! Waiting on a new battery now, I tried posting a video but can’t get the video small enough to upload on this site. It’s the weirdest thing it was running fine and went to ride it and bamn wouldn’t stay running smh
The fuel pump has a filter on it - so cannot imagine something got thru the line to block the injector. Not in 500 miles.
Scoot does not have a shut-off for side stand down - but does have a tip-over shut-off ("sensor, angle detect" #35380-LEA2-900, $68.00)- whose job it is to shut down the engine (fuel pump?) in a matter of a few seconds in a tip-ever (wreck). Wonder if this is somehow activated …..by being jostled, tipped by owner, come lose from mounting? ? Never heard of it malfunctioning on a LIKE200i. No ideas where it is....sadly. Anyone know?
You say "500 Miles"...…are you the first owner? Wondering if previous owner worked on it? Did he do something wrong with the valve adjustment….like leaving the tappet lock nut too loose? Would be my first LIKE200i to begin not starting from need of valve adjustment at only 500 miles from the factory settings.
My LIKE will try to start and run with the kill switch in the 'KILL' position - but won't actually run. We're sure about the kill switch position?!
These things are bullet proof scoots - which is frustrating us all with your issue. You don't live in SW Ohio, do you?
Stig
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@stig, yes we bought it right off the showroom floor, it has never been worked on, also if there is a sensor aka tilt sensor, I would have no idea where it was, it has been been layed down or even tilted further than the tilt of the kick stand.
Im waiting on the battery to get here monday hopefully that will cure the problem.
Ive double checked the kill switch and it is in the correct position, I will jiggle it again and see if it does anything, heck it may be bad who knows.
I will try and find the tilt sensor.
All you guys are awesome I really do appreciate all this help.
Thanks
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OK ALL, in my original post I had rode the scooter and then it was setting for about a month, and went to start it and it stalled. Well, actually after it was set up for a month, it DID crank up and stayed running and my wife rode it about 500 yards before it stalled!
And this is where it has been doing the things stated in the previous post. Form the point it stalled with her, it will crank and run for about 3 - 4 seconds then stall, and in all honesty it is getting harder and harder to crank. The old NAVY HT in me is thinking it has something to do with fuel, but man I know nothing about fuel injected motor scooters. Wondering if a injector is bad.
Hope this helps.
Thanks hope this helps somehow.
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OK ALL, in my original post I had rode the scooter and then it was setting for about a month, and went to start it and it stalled. Well, actually after it was set up for a month, it DID crank up and stayed running and my wife rode it about 500 yards before it stalled!
And this is where it has been doing the things stated in the previous post. Form the point it stalled with her, it will crank and run for about 3 - 4 seconds then stall, and in all honesty it is getting harder and harder to crank. The old NAVY HT in me is thinking it has something to do with fuel, but man I know nothing about fuel injected motor scooters. Wondering if a injector is bad.
Hope this helps.
Thanks hope this helps somehow.
OK, died while riding!
First - your Kymco engine is warranted for 24 months after first registered for the road.....regardless of the model year. Are you still under warranty?
I wouldn't go much further if you are still under warranty.
If not:
Since it keeps starting, then dying - plus you've checked a lot of obvious stuff - I am inclined to think it is fuel related, too.
But not just water in the gas....maybe fuel pump is failing? With no carb, the fuel is forced (pumped) to the injector by the pump in the tank on signal from the ECU. There is a cold start step, then a reg. run step. Your cold start step seems to be working....
fuel pump not getting correct info to keep running by the ECU - would a weak battery cause this?
Less likely:
vacuum has formed in the tank? Will it start/run with gas cap loosened?
overfilled tank fowling the breather hose system?
Maybe:
injector clogged, loose, or not getting good info from the ECU?.
Worse case:
ECU has failed?
You are not getting any code flashes from the self diag. system?
I forget- have you tried a known good spark plug? Got a good spark when grounded to frame?(plugs don't just crack on their own - cap not seated, cap needs screwed into wire a few turns?)
This will be good info for other owners, when we get it figured out!
Stig
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It’s been registered since 2013 so I don’t think the warranty is still good. I have tried cranking with the gas cap off it does the same thing. I did notice when I turned the key on and the fuel pump starts going I see air bubble in the fuel tank not sure if it’s supposed to do that or not just seems odd. I’ll try some fresh gas and see if that does anything. I know for sure there is not water in the gas this thing has never seen water much less even been dirty lol. I will check the fuel injector by check I mean take it off and put it back on. Not sure how to check it otherwise.
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Maybe I shouldn't have ignored your bubbles in tank comment.....
Don't see them in mine.
There is a LIKE200I fuel pump DIY in LIKE200I heading, at top - in the stickies. Wonder if your fuel delivery issue is related to in-tank pump and/or lines?
I tested my injector with 9V Battery, it squirted just fine. (my engine stumble turned out to be failed throttle position sensor. Also rare, but related to 2012/13 models) Throttle body replaced under warranty)
If you remove injector...take note of all the bits and their position.
Unfortunately, your issue with a 500 mile LIKE is new to our forum.
Still think we'll find it to have been something simple....but new here.
Stig
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Ok I put the new battery in and bamn nothing :( I’m figuring it’s a fuel thing, actually now it doesn’t even crank for a couple seconds more like half a second
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Ok I put the new battery in and bamn nothing :( I’m figuring it’s a fuel thing, actually now it doesn’t even crank for a couple seconds more like half a second
If it doesn't crank, it isn't fuel. It's electrical...
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Wait! What do you mean by "crank?" The deep south says "it won't crank" means it won't fire and run! They mean the starter spins it, but it won't fire and run! Now. What do you mean?
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Well when I first started the thread, it would crank and run for about 3 seconds then stall, now it will crank and run for only about 1 second if that. lol
and yes I am originally from Alabama,
I have a brand new sprak plug in it, new battery, check all the wires, the grounds, not sure how to check the fuel injector. I did take it out and looked at it with a very stern look, but that did not seem to work.
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Try just turning the key on, wait while it runs its little self check where tach and speedo needles go full deflection and back to zero and then do ALL the panel warning lights go out (except the red oil light) and stay out? Or does the check engine (CELP) light come back on in flashing code?
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The light comes in for a couple seconds, and then nothing no blinking or anything, however while I’m turning it over to crank it, the light does blink sometimes
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It seems to be running out of gas...or spark, duh.
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My previous blurb is incomplete: I would first determine whether its a fuel or ignition problem. If you have a can of starting fluid (ether) you can squirt some in via the air filter to see if it continue to run instead of dying, then you know it's a fuel problem. Conversely, if it dies regardless of the ether it's loosing spark. At least eliminate one or the other to begin your troubleshooting....
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From August 10th post: "notice small bubble in the gas tank..."
The in-tank fuel pump does vibrate and make a little disturbance on the surface of the gasoline in the tank.
But, repeated presence of air bubbles coming up from the pump or its fittings, might indicate air is getting into the line to the injector.
Yes, some starting fluid sprayed into the hose from the air filter would be worth a try.
Stig
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Hello all, the battery I purchased was bad so I had to send it back and wait on another one. I’m gonna try all these things again including the starting fluid. Preparing for hurricane Dorian now so as soon as it passes I will get back to working on the scoot.
Thank you for all of yalls help and keep the info coming.
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Looks like I may need a new fuel pump any ideas?
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My previous photo hoster dumped my pix. Let me rebuild the post to show how to replace a LIKE200I fuel pump for @$60.
BTW... never heard of a failed fuel pump in a LIKE200I...but anything is possible.
Stig
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The fuel pump is what the dealer told me it “could†be. I don’t have a way to get it to the shop and to be honest I can repair it myself as long as I know what it is. Gonna try starter fluid in the air intake this morning and respond back.
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Ok everyone, I did the starter fluid through the air intake and yes it cranked and ran for about 30 solid seconds!!!!
What does that tell me? :D
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Ok everyone, I did the starter fluid through the air intake and yes it cranked and ran for about 30 solid seconds!!!!
What does that tell me? :D
C'mon you good mechanics out there!!
I'm a sorry excuse for a mechanic --- but I'm thinking there is an problem with the fuel delivery.
To check the fuel injector with multimeter --- EASY > unplug connector down at the injector. Touch two prongs with meter to read ohms. should read 11.7 +/- .06
To check power to the fuel pump: unplug white connector on black cable leading from the tank top. Touch the multi meter leads to the harness side of the fuel pump connector, with the positive lead touching the red/black wire terminal and the negative lead touching the green wire terminal.
Turn the ignition switch on. The battery voltage should show for a few seconds. Replace the fuel pump if it is not functioning and the input voltage is correct.
If the battery voltage is not present check the following:
â— Fuse B (10 A)
â— Fuel cut-off relay
â— ECU
To check the fuel pump with multimeter:
Touch the multi meter leads to the fuel pump side of the fuel pump connector, with the positive lead touching the red/black wire terminal and the negative lead touching the green wire terminal.
Fuel pump resistance (at 20°C/68°F)
red/black and green wires
1.9 ± 0.3 Ω
So, 3 fairly easy tests to get us started on inspecting the fuel delivery.
Please report back.
Stig
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Or disconnect the fuel line where it feeds into the motor and direct it into a coffee cup - turn on the ignition and see if the pump is actually able to spew fuel into the cup.
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Ok, I put the ohms tester on the injector plug the ohms read 16something. I put the volt meter on the plug side of the pump and turned the key on and it read 6 something, I took the fuel line off and turned the key on and the pump pumped fuel.
I’m not an expert but I did stay in a holiday in a holiday in express once. Lol
I’m guessing now it’s either the injector or a relay of sort.
Thoughts?
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(https://i.postimg.cc/zvC13W83/P1070870-1.jpg)
I tested both my spare, known good, injector and the injector in my LIKE200i - both came in at low 12.0 ohms.
Your injector tested at 16 ohms?....which is out of specs. What the deuce do we make of that!
You have fuel flowing to the injector - from your pump test?
Ignition is working per your starter spray test?
One injector test which I did years ago - remove the injector, leave fuel line on, and test for a spray with 9V battery touched to the two leads?
The procedure: remove the injector, disconnect injector lead from scooter, leave fuel line on, turn key on to build fuel pressure , turn key off, touch injector leads with leads from 9V battery - does it spray 2 or 3 times into a cup until pressure is gone when it is touched each time with the 9V leads?
I really hate the idea of buying parts for a new scooter - and hoping they'll stick to the wall.....
Stig
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Ok everyone I tested the injector with the 9volt batter, and it was spitting gas, I also took the injector off and reconnected it and again it did spit gas, I’m at a loss
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Well, "the ECU controls the injector - not the other way 'round." (quote from Kymco guru Vivo)
But cannot get my head around a bad ECU - never known one to fail on a LIKE200i. Especially since you are getting a good spark when grounding the plug. ECU is sparking it!
so, after a whole boatload of other things proven good (injector, fuel pump, spark plug & wire, loose spark plug cap, loose spark plug, ignition switch, etc.) (that battery is really good, yes?!)
From the serv. manual:
Engine starts, but stops:
air intake leak
faulty coil or pulse generator
Testing the coil is a tester - because of where it is parked. The mounting screws are from the outside of the scooter - under the outer plastic. VERY hard to get the coil dismounted without removing the big right side body panel. I've done it but not fun.
Testing coil;
You must get the distal black square-ish connector off of the coil, and touch the coils two prongs with your multimeter.
(not the round front wire into the coil from the spark plug)
ignition Coil Primary Resistance
0.654 ~ 0.672 Ω
Please keep us in the looo.... Oh h_ll, good luck!
Stig
Glad we didn't buy a fuel pump or injector!
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Ok so here’s where I am. I was messing with the scoot, taking a look at how to get to the coil, but I have a new problem now, I think I have either worn out my starter relay or my starter cause my brand new battery will barely turn the engine over. I took the new battery and had it load tested and the battery is good. So now how do I test the starter relay? Also I took the spark plug out which is new just to check the gap, and the spark plug smelled of gasoline, does that mean something?
I will have a go at the coil tomorrow, but before I tear the other side apart, if the coil was bad would the engine still start using starter fluid as it will start and run when I spray it in the intake!
Thank you
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................... So now how do I test the starter relay?.........
Also I took the spark plug out which is new just to check the gap, and the spark plug smelled of gasoline, does that mean something?
The starter solenoid / relay has a wire which goes to the starter Motor. That wire only gets Positive (+) feed when the ignition switch gets switched "On", and when you then hit the starter Button.
You can disconnect that wire (between the starter Motor and the solenoid/ relay) at the solenoid/ relay - and do a voltage test at the loose terminal on the solenoid/ relay when somebody hit the starter button (with ignition switch in "On" position).
If you get a proper voltage reading (about 12+ Volts) on the loose terminal - the starter Motor probably got faulty.
If you get a much lower Voltage reading on the loose terminal, the starter solenoid/relay, starter Button, ignition Switch, or brake Switches could be faulty.
The gasoline smell should be normal - because gasoline will be squirted into the combustion chamber even when the engine was turning slowly.
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I will have a go at the coil tomorrow, but before I tear the other side apart, if the coil was bad would the engine still start using starter fluid as it will start and run when I spray it in the intake!
Thank you
OK, to recap:
This is a scooter with only 500 miles.....so doubt anything much has cooked from wear. You are not touching the throttle on any start attempts - correct? (this EFI engine does not like any attempt to help it with throttle!)
Pump, injector, spark plug, starter, coil, relay, starter switch - ALL seemed to be working because it starts/runs with starter fluid.
(1) Is the starter relay still clicking when you push starter button?
Fuel smell on plug - normal. DO let engine rest for some time between starts - repeated attempts will flood the cylinder with fuel - wetting the plug & making for hard starting on even a healthy engine. Wet plug also points to good fuel flow, or at least some fuel flow.
(2) Remove the spark plug - let all the extra fuel in engine dry out for hours.
Firing with starter fluid spray and seeing a good spark on the spark plug - probably means the coil is OK, too. Don't mess with it. Hearing the starter relay click when you push start button usually means relay is OK, too
(3) After you dry out the engine - Replace the spark plug and try jump starting using a car. Connect your battery to a good battery in the car - DO NOT have the car running! Just connect scooter battery to the car battery.
Try starting for a few seconds only each time. Let things rest/cool between a few start attempts.
At this point I don't trust your tired battery - and do not think you've cooked either the starter or its relay - unless you were really hammering them. The car jump win or fail will tell us a lot.
No go?
Then stop.
Report back.
Hang in there!
Stig
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Ok, so I tested the relay on the post that connects the starter to the relay with a multimeter while I pushed the starter button, the voltage was 12 something.
Also, I took the spark plug out, let the engone dry and put it back in and tried to start it with my car battery, it would barely turn over, then when I disconected my jumper cables and tried again all i heard was the starter clicking like on a car when the battery is dead. I have had the new battery tested and load tested twice and the test said the battery was fine. I dont know what else to do.
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Ok, so I tested the relay on the post that connects the starter to the relay with a multimeter while I pushed the starter button, the voltage was 12 something.
Also, I took the spark plug out, let the engone dry and put it back in and tried to start it with my car battery, it would barely turn over, then when I disconected my jumper cables and tried again all i heard was the starter clicking like on a car when the battery is dead. I have had the new battery tested and load tested twice and the test said the battery was fine. I dont know what else to do.
I think you have no option other than removing the starter completely, clamp it in a bench vice, and test it directly from the scooter's battery by using jumper cables. Rather disconnect the scooter's battery terminals from the battery before the jumper cables get connected to the battery.
You actually need to do some kind of "load test" on the starter motor to see if i'ts still in good working order. The starter motor might be running when connected to the battery, but it might not be able to turn properly under load.
You can do a simple diy test on the starter motor by pressing a plank, or piece of wood against the bendix drive gear when the motor gets connected to the battery during the bench test. I know this sounds stupid - but tests like this on starter motors are quite common. If the motor start loosing speed without pressing too hard on the plank / wood, chances are about 100% that the starter motor is faulty.
Just be very careful if you do a test like this yourself. You at least need to wear eye protective gear, as well as gloves during the test . Pieces of wood might be flying everywhere and you need to have a firm grip on the plank / wood when you press against the bendix drive. The starter motor also needs to be clamped properly at the bench vice during a test like this.
If you prefer not to do a test like this yourself - rather get the starter motor tested at the agents, or any auto electrician. Any auto electrician should be able to tell whether the starter motor is faulty or not.
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I think you have no option other than removing the starter completely, clamp it in a bench vice, and test it directly from the scooter's battery by using jumper cables. Rather disconnect the scooter's battery terminals from the battery before the jumper cables get connected to the battery.
You actually need to do some kind of "load test" on the starter motor to see if i'ts still in good working order. The starter motor might be running when connected to the battery, but it might not be able to turn properly under load.
You can do a simple diy test on the starter motor by pressing a plank, or piece of wood against the bendix drive gear when the motor gets connected to the battery during the bench test. I know this sounds stupid - but tests like this on starter motors are quite common. If the motor start loosing speed without pressing too hard on the plank / wood, chances are about 100% that the starter motor is faulty.
Just be very careful if you do a test like this yourself. You at least need to wear eye protective gear, as well as gloves during the test . Pieces of wood might be flying everywhere and you need to have a firm grip on the plank / wood when you press against the bendix drive. The starter motor also needs to be clamped properly at the bench vice during a test like this.
If you prefer not to do a test like this yourself - rather get the starter motor tested at the agents, or any auto electrician. Any auto electrician should be able to tell whether the starter motor is faulty or not.
Scooterfan, You're the electrician - So, I'll pose this to you.
Could not we just use a screwdriver across the two starter relay posts to see if the starter works?
If starter does work, then haven't we narrowed it down to a relay that 'clicks' but, for internal reasons, is not working - before we go pulling out the starter??
Stig
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Scooterfan, You're the electrician - So, I'll pose this to you.
Could not we just use a screwdriver across the two starter relay posts to see if the starter works?
If starter does work, then haven't we narrowed it down to a relay that 'clicks' but, for internal reasons, is not working - before we go pulling out the starter??
Stig
Hi Stig, just to get the records straight - I'm not a qualified electrician. I've been a workshop manager before I retired. We manufactured industrial equipment and we used several brands of engines on our products. From time to time we experienced electrical problems and I always liked watching the electrical guys when they were solving problems. I eventually got involved in solving problems myself without having a proper qualification.
Regarding a screwdriver - yes, a screwdriver or piece of thick wire can be used to bridge the two "big" terminals on the solenoid / relay, but to my understanding whiskers626 got a 12 Volt reading on the loose terminal during the test. Therefore to my mind the solenoid/ relay seems to be okay - but there is a possibility that you could be right. It definitely can't hurt just to bridge the two solenoid terminals to see what happens.
@ whiskers626
Just another thought which came to mind.
Rather bridge the two terminals on the solenoid / relay first.
If there is no improvement on the starter motor speed:
- Before you remove the starter motor, remove the spark plug - and remove the cooling fan Cover on the engine first.
-Then try to swing the engine clockwise, by turning the cooling fan by hand.
The engine should swing easily. If you find it slightly difficult to turn the engine by hand you are having a mechanical problem - not an electrical problem.
If the engine turns easily by hand and bridging the solenoid terminals didn't help - I would definitely remove the starter motor for a proper test.
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These things are bullet proof scoots -
They may be "bullet-proof" but when they won't run, they're impossible to diagnose. I have a good friend with a similar F/I model (Yager 200) that just won't keep running, just like this one. When he phones, I won't answer. Isn't it time to hear from someone who has converted from F/I to a carburetor?
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Viper254 suggested fuel problem. He's built LIKEs.
I swear, the injector remains suspect with me now . ...I'd be thinking about that elephant in the room - the ECU, which controls the injector.
If we've worn out the starter, or relay....in trying to get and ignite the fuel, we've complicated things.
Short that relay, if starter operates.
Tis dealer time??
Stig
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Well I tested the relay, and it’s operable, now the starter will not even turn the engine. Does anyone have a step by step diagram on how to take the starter out so I can test it. The service manual instruction say “remove and install in reverse of removal duh lol
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Well I tested the relay, and it’s operable, now the starter will not even turn the engine. Does anyone have a step by step diagram on how to take the starter out so I can test it. The service manual instruction say “remove and install in reverse of removal duh lol
I have no experience regarding removing starter motors on scooters, but maybe the procedure will not be very different from the procedure on this video at Youtube:
https://www.google.com/search?q=how+to+remove+a+scooter+starter+motor&oq=how+to&aqs=chrome.3.69i59j69i57j69i59j35i39j0j69i61.21366j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#kpvalbx=_K-OQXdeDD6TjxgPS3KHADg16 (https://www.google.com/search?q=how+to+remove+a+scooter+starter+motor&oq=how+to&aqs=chrome.3.69i59j69i57j69i59j35i39j0j69i61.21366j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#kpvalbx=_K-OQXdeDD6TjxgPS3KHADg16)
This video should also by useful:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2tv_r7tbbc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2tv_r7tbbc)
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To answer your question, nope. No step by step.
A 3 min. test before trying to remove the starter:
You have a good brake light with key on and brake lever pulled?
Your turn signals are bright and blink at normal speed with key on?
Stater relay 'clicks' when start button pushed?
Yes?
No? stop - and please report back.
I have never really looked...but hopefully you can see the two 8mm mounting bolts after you remove the seat pan?
I think it is the gold colored can-shaped part nearly under the left side of the fuel tank?
Or, maybe you can get at them from the left side of the scooter, under the bodywork? But I'm not seeing a clear path that way.
If you can get a socket or wrench on the two little bolts ---- it should slide out after being unbolted.
I think the fender hugger is also attached to the rear-most mounting bolt.
New OEM Kymco one runs about $70. Probably a bunch of cheaper Chinese ones avail., if you want to go that way. But, since there's no kick start on these scoots - you might want to invest in a good one.
(https://i.postimg.cc/L4NHyK1K/000startr.jpg)
You, and we, will be pleasantly surprised if a new starter will fix your original issue!
Stig
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Since this appears to be a 200i fuel injected model, have you tried any ECU diagnostics tools? It's possible that your injector nozzle could be OK, but the injection timing might be off. This would be the next step after verifying that the fuel pump is working, and the injector nozzle itself is clean and spraying properly when activated. The Injector is activated by a simple electrical signal from the ECU. It's likely not a complicated setup, but no signal means no fuel and the engine won't start. You can test by removing the injector and spraying some fuel into the injector opening in the intake manifold. If everything else is OK, the engine will fire briefly. Then you need to check out the ECU. However, I'm not familiar with how the ECU diagnostic tool in the Like 200i is connected since the Like may not have a standard Harley or similar OBD2 diagnostic port.
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Since this appears to be a 200i fuel injected model, have you tried any ECU diagnostics tools? It's possible that your injector nozzle could be OK, but the injection timing might be off. This would be the next step after verifying that the fuel pump is working, and the injector nozzle itself is clean and spraying properly when activated. The Injector is activated by a simple electrical signal from the ECU. It's likely not a complicated setup, but no signal means no fuel and the engine won't start. You can test by removing the injector and spraying some fuel into the injector opening in the intake manifold. If everything else is OK, the engine will fire briefly. Then you need to check out the ECU. However, I'm not familiar with how the ECU diagnostic tool in the Like 200i is connected since the Like may not have a standard Harley or similar OBD2 diagnostic port.
JJJ, let's not run him in circles. ...reading his posts you'll see that he has tested the injector.
Stig
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@stig I turned the key on and the headlight, tail light, blinker all work fine and bright, and when I hit the start but the relay clicks, not a repeated click lime a car does when the battery is dead just one click when I hit the button and the starter does nothing.
I know this has nothing to do with my original problem but now I can’t even get back to my original problem because the starter will not turn the engine, I think I may have worn the starter out trying to fix the original problem. :o
Thank you again for everyone’s help. What now? Lol
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Whiskers,
You anywhere in S W Ohio?!
Time for a forum meet in your driveway!
Seriously....we could make a house call if you aren't too far, and you have donuts in your country.
Stig
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Man I wish, I’m in Bradenton Florida. Long way away.
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Man I wish, I’m in Bradenton Florida. Long way away.
Ah well, won't be down to St Pete beach till next June to visit mom.
Ok, so no starter if you use a screwdrive to jump across the two relay posts?
No go? Guess you need a new starter. Can you get a socket or wrench on the two 8mm starter bolts, working from under the seat? Might be a used Kymco starter on ebay....but don't pay near the new price of $70.
Stig
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I have a 2005 Mongoose 300 quad which is now acting just like your scooter was in your first posts.
It will crank the starter great, engine fires, runs great for three or four cycles, then dies quickly, just like you turned off the key or pressed the kill switch. No slow sputter like poor fuel supply, but a quick die.. I am in neutral and the parking brake is applied.
I too have done (most) everything mentioned throughout the prior posts, with no good results.
But I have stumbled onto a new possibility - possible failure of my “gear shift control assemblyâ€.
Does your scooter have a similar safety device? My quad is designed not to start unless it’s in neutral. Even with my shifter in neutral, my quad acts like your scooter- starts but quickly dies.
If I do not have my “parking brake†applied, the starter will not turn at all. That’s another safety feature built in that I can live with.
To get it to start, before pushing the start button, I move my shifter from neutral to forward, then back to neutral, then press the starter button, and sometimes it starts and keeps running. If that fails, I shift from neutral to reverse back to neutral then press the start button and sometimes it runs and keeps running. It’s hit and miss.
Not sure this helps, but it’s the least I can do since you guys have been working so hard trying to resolve your situation which has very similar symptoms to my quad.
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Thanks for your post.
But no, that is not found on this scooter - or on any scooter that I know of.
Closest scooter device might be the tip-over device. Shuts the scooter off after a fall.
Stig
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Stig, for the life of me I can’t find the mounting bolts for my scoot, I have the service manual but it shows to mounting prongs and for the life of me I can’t find them, do you have any idea how I get the starter out this thing is driving me crazy. My wife and I moved down here from Panama City because of Michael, my motorcycles and my scooter was the only things not destroyed in the hurricane, now I wish maybe just the scoot would have been swept away lol not really but this thing is a pain in the arss
Any help on getting the darn starter out
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Stig, for the life of me I can’t find the mounting bolts for my scoot, I have the service manual but it shows to mounting prongs and for the life of me I can’t find them, do you have any idea how I get the starter out this thing is driving me crazy. My wife and I moved down here from Panama City because of Michael, my motorcycles and my scooter was the only things not destroyed in the hurricane, now I wish maybe just the scoot would have been swept away lol not really but this thing is a pain in the arss
Any help on getting the darn starter out
As my Grandpa used to say, "Hold your water!"(though, never really knew what that meant)....I'm pulling my seat/bucket and investigating. There has got to be a way to get at it, without pulling the engine! I'm thinking removing the entire airb0x should expose the two phillips screw heads holding it into the engine.
Have camera, flashlight and coffee....
Back soonest...
Stig
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OK, it looks like the airbox, complete, must come out to access the two starter fasteners. (8mm bolt and a phillips screw)
Not all that easy because there are a few hoses attached to the airbox, including the large fitting to the throttle body.
Do take photos, for replacement, and try wiggling the airbox to see what other hoses.tubes need to be unplugged.
With the airbox out of the way, working from the left side, it should be possible to remove the starter bolts, unplug the wire, and lift out the starter.
(https://i.postimg.cc/1RW1B3mf/21.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/2ybydzcJ/P1090299.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/pVJsvHPf/2.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/j5GGBZ52/P1090292.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/MG81Lx6Q/P1090288.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/1X5zn79X/start11.png)
(https://i.postimg.cc/43TMvBdQ/starttt.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/xCZZMcQm/start.jpg)
forum has closed me out so many times trying to post this!
so, the short version.
If it works as the best way to remove a LIKE200i starter I will make it a DIY sticky.
Stig
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Ok Stig, I got it out Woopwoop, now finding a starter, I see a lot on amazon and other sites and they look exactly the same but none of them say “ for 200i or 200cc. They all say 150cc but the measurements for the bolt holes are exactly the same. Dumb question, but do you think one of those will work?
I know it’s a blind question but who knows?
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Wait-! Let me ask Blind Jeff, our pin striper and paint color matcher....
He says, "go for it!"
Me, I'd try one of the Kymco dealers who sell parts - listed at top of General Discussion page.
They run @$75 for oem part....but this is probably 3X the price of knockoffs.
For Instructional Purposes : can you give us a short description of what you did to get the starter out?
Stig
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Wait-! Let me ask Blind Jeff, our pin striper and paint color matcher....
He says, "go for it!"
Me, I'd try one of the Kymco dealers who sell parts - listed at top of General Discussion page.
They run @$75 for oem part....but this is probably 3X the price of knockoffs.
For Instructional Purposes : can you give us a short description of what you did to get the starter out?
Stig
Stupid question. I assume the starter has been tested since you got it out ?
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Hello all, sorry it’s been so long, bought a house and had to move, so everything went on hold, does anyone know where I can he a starter for my 2013 like 200i? The dealer here wants 165 bucks not gonna happen!
Thanks in advance
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looking at used LIKE starters on ebay....they sure look just like this new one for $28.
Might be worth a try? Fast free shipping.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-STARTER-ETON-SCOOTER-PN21-MATRIX-R4-150-813808-LESTER-19573-410-58004/361938153302?fits=Model%3ALike%7CSubmodel%3A200i%7CMake%3AKYMCO&hash=item544531ef56:g:kSAAAOSw4vRdUsA7:sc:ShippingMethodStandard (https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-STARTER-ETON-SCOOTER-PN21-MATRIX-R4-150-813808-LESTER-19573-410-58004/361938153302?fits=Model%3ALike%7CSubmodel%3A200i%7CMake%3AKYMCO&hash=item544531ef56:g:kSAAAOSw4vRdUsA7:sc:ShippingMethodStandard)!45503!US!-1
Good luck!
Stig
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Stupid question. I assume the starter has been tested since you got it out ?
To repeat Scooterfan's question, did you actually TEST the starter to confirm it is bad?
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Yes I completely burn it up trying to get it started and it will not even turn like it’s froze up
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Hello all again, I got the starter from the link that was posted got it in an all is good on that front. But now back to the original problem, it will not stay running here is what I’ve done.
1. Changed to gas to new gas
2. Checked the fuel pump to make sure it’s pumping it is,
3. Checked the injector with a 9volt battery and it sprays gas
4. Checked all the vacuum lines and all seem good.
5. Checked the run switch seems to work fine.
And all the other things that were posted for me to try.
Still nothing, so in saying all that I still have the air breather cover off and when I spray a little starter fluid in there it will start and run for a few seconds until that burns off.
Any other ideas?????
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Any help on getting the darn starter out
Starters are a no-brainer. There's only two types of standard Chinese starters (50cc and 150cc) and you can find them on eBay, usually less than $50. And for each there's only two bolts holding it in place. Remove the seat-pan to see the starter. Remove all the plastic duct work that's in the way. Look for the two starter attach bolts, undo them, and pull the starter out of the hole. That's it.
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Starters are a no-brainer. There's only two types of standard Chinese starters (50cc and 150cc) and you can find them on eBay, usually less than $50. And for each there's only two bolts holding it in place. Remove the seat-pan to see the starter. Remove all the plastic duct work that's in the way. Look for the two starter attach bolts, undo them, and pull the starter out of the hole. That's it.
JJ, he has replaced the starter. See his last post. That is no longer an issue....still won't run.
Stig
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It seems like it is time to look at the ECU.
IS the ECU sending signal current to the fuel injector to spray in the fuel.
Unplug the black wire at the injector, and using a multimeter probe on the two contacts in this wire -- check for a current @11V>12V coming from the ECU in this wire when trying to start.
If not, there is some possibility that there is a break in this black wire - but more likely the fault is with the ECU.
Please report back.
Stig
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Beat me to it! Stig is nailing it! It runs with sray to the intake = fuel delivery problem.
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@stig I took the connector off the injector, and but the black and red multimeter in the connector and tried to start and the voltage was all over the place way up and way down never stayed on just 12 volts
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That injector gets an electric pulse every other revolution and your electronic meter "samples" what is on the red and black leads about every 3 milliseconds. That means the meter will show all kinds of voltages. You have a fuel delivery problem....
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@stig I took the connector off the injector, and but the black and red multimeter in the connector and tried to start and the voltage was all over the place way up and way down never stayed on just 12 volts
1) Was the high around 11>12V?
2) Is there a reading with just the key on - and no start?
I have a service support ticket created with a Kymco mechanic - and will report back your findings - please be as detailed as possible , with answers as well to questions 1 & 2.
Will relay your info on Monday. (tomorrow)
Stig
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@stig when cranking the voltage jumps around but never higher than about 2.5v and with just the key on absolutely ZERO V
Thank you so much
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@stig when cranking the voltage jumps around but never higher than about 2.5v and with just the key on absolutely ZERO V
Thank you so much
Please confirm not a typo …."2.5V", not 12.5V?
Stig
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Yes only 2.5 at most while cranking it jumped from zero 1.3 to 2.5 and in between
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Never even close to 12
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OK, thanks.
I will report back ASAP .
Stig
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Is the trigger for the injector 12 or 5 vdc?
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Is the trigger for the injector 12 or 5 vdc?
It is my understanding also that some of the sensors receive 5V impulses from the ECU.
But 2.5...??
Pretty sketchy/hazardous way to test ECU/injector cooperation. ...is connected injector into coffee can and hit starter button.
Will see what the mechanic thinks of 2.5
Stig
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I did the coffee can thing and hit the start button, it did squirt some gas but it was a minute amount, by the time I looked back in the cup it had evaporated.
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It is my understanding also that some of the sensors receive 5V impulses from the ECU.
But 2.5...??
Pretty sketchy/hazardous way to test ECU/injector cooperation. ...is connected injector into coffee can and hit starter button.
Will see what the mechanic thinks of 2.5
Stig
Yes, 2.5 volts would be too low regardless. But then that could be a multimeter scan thing.
I think the coffee can idea is good if the starter is allowed to spin the engine 3 to 4 cycles. That way, both spray pattern and cycle to cycle consistency could be observed.
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OK, the black&blue wire from the ECU to the injector carries the battery voltage with the key on and should have 11.77>12V .
The white&red wire carries the triggering signal from the ECU.
Try that and see if my info is accurate.
Please be darn certain you have a reliable reading with your multimeter - because DCV 2.5 is a problem on which-ever is the triggering wire.
Now the ECU to injector wire takes a few 90 degree turns - so inspect it closely for any breaks on bare spots. It would not take much for a faulting wire to give the injector bad triggering info. from the ECU.
Let us know what you find out.
Stig
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Ok I must have been testing wrong, this time I touched the black probe to a ground and the red probe to the connector, can’t tell which is which but one of the connectors I get 11.9 with the switch on and nothing out of the other. Now on the triggering side when I try and start it, it jumps around but never reaches even 1 volt. So not sure what to think,
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OK, it looks like your ECU is sending the proper signals to the injector with the key on - no start. (don't worry about what it's doing when starting - the signals from your ECU are too fast for your meter).
11.9 battery voltage with key on is good in the one wire.
"0" DCV on the other is good (it's a ground)
Now the injector needs a test.
Using your multimeter* set to read ohms - measure the resistance between the two injector terminals. You're looking for 11.7 ± 0.6 ?
*If you are a little rusty with this - please watch a youtube.
Stig
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Ok this is weird, the ohms on this injector kept jumping around anywhere from 32.5 to 145. Even up to 170 something.
Not sure what to make of that
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Just to eliminate any problems with the meter, what do you get when you touch and hold the meter leads together for 5-to-10 seconds?
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It is kind of important that you and your multi meter are doing this test correctly.
Again - if in doubt watch a few youtubes from electrical pros.
You are looking for 11.7? ….+ or - .6?.
check your multimeter as Karl suggested to rule out meter error.
No point in purchasing a new injector if your's is giving the above reading.
Stig
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When I touch them together I just get 5
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(https://i.postimg.cc/28qQL2B2/P1070978.jpg)
I checked two known good LIKE injectors this morning. 12.1 ohms on one and 11.9 ohms on the other (looking for 11.1>12.3 ohms)
Yes, .5 ohms resistance in the meter prongs itself is OK I think.
OK, so back to the test at the injector socket.....still getting crazy readings with meter set to read ohms as in my photo?
Stig
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Ok finally got a reading and it stopped on 16.4,
Not sure what that means is higher the number better or lower than the norm better?
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The reading you provided us here is outside the range as stated in the USA Kymco service manual.
16.4 is not within the manual's specified range of 11.1 to 12.3 ohms.
The USA Kymco service manual states:
"Replace the fuel injector if the reading is beyond specification."
I am not going to say that you need to replace the injector. What I am going to do is re-read these 7 pages associated with your scooter's issue - and see if it makes sense that a sick injector > and a scooter which now runs only, and only briefly, on starter spray are logically connected.
Hopefully, you'll join me in this as well.....and decide what you want to do.
Your injector is likely a Siemens DEKA model. A stock Kymco part of @$70.
Stig
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When I touch them together I just get 5
You get 5 (=as in 5.0)? That means your resistance check of 16.4 ohms is REALLY 11.4 ohms which is in the normal range. You still have a fuel delivery problem.
Causes:
1. System volts below 10.5 when cranking to start.
2. Low fuel pump output/pressure
3. Bad gas or diesel in tank.
4. Too much time on this forum has ruined you!
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Stupid question: Have you tried a bigger battery since the new starter has been installed ? Like using jumper cables on a loose car battery ?
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You get 5 (=as in 5.0)? That means your resistance check of 16.4 ohms is REALLY 11.4 ohms which is in the normal range. You still have a fuel delivery problem.
Causes:
1. System volts below 10.5 when cranking to start.
2. Low fuel pump output/pressure
3. Bad gas or diesel in tank.
4. Too much time on this forum has ruined you!
Sorry Karl,
I didn't imagine a multimeter being that far off calibration. ...so assumed he meant .5 , not 5.0
Hope he clarifies for us.
If he had a meter reading 5 in self test -- probably should toss it - yes?
Stig
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Could be a problem with test leads. Could be an old Simpson 260 with zero adjust. Could be .5 ohms. Who knows?
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I’m gonna go today and buy a new voltage meter, I’m thinking my old one has some issues,
Question I noticed on my injector threre is a small tear in the print would that cause a problem not a big tear but it’s just nicked
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The fuel pump seems to be working fine, I took the hose off the injector and turn the key on so I could get the last little bit of gas out and it seemed to be pumping pretty good, I need to find a scooter diagnostic tool ugh
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I’m gonna go today and buy a new voltage meter, I’m thinking my old one has some issues,
Question I noticed on my injector threre is a small tear in the print would that cause a problem not a big tear but it’s just nicked
"....tear in the print" ??
POINT?....the spray tip? You lost me here.
The fuel line?
And, yes a healthy multimeter to read that injector again would give us some good info!
Stig
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Yeah, me, too! Whisker, what is "print" in relation to injector? You gotta use terms we understand or define the terms you use.
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I need to find a scooter diagnostic tool ugh
It's about time somebody woke up to this fundamental tool that nobody here has ever heard of!
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Sorry not point but O RING, not sure what happen, the auto correct on my phone I guess
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OK, thanks.
To review :
1) continues to start & run for few seconds only on starter fluid spray?
2) obtaining another multimeter & will test ohms reading when:
## touching its 2 probes together
## touching injector
Small nick in O-ring should be OK.
Would be heck trying to find replacement.
Stig
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Ok new meter readings below
Touching probes together 4.3
Touching probes on injector 16.5
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Many of us live to solve problems on these scoots! Nothing is more satisfying than to hear a guy or gals scoot is now back running better than ever! But each one with a problem has to meet us half way with information. Makes no difference who comes up with the solution. The main idea is that the problem is solved and you are back in the saddle, again!
New meter readings? New meter or new readings on original meter?
OK, your injector is 12.2 ohms, good to go. If it sprays consistently into a can during start sequence then you have either an air or compression problem.
But, since it will fire and run while you spray into inlet something flammable that gets back to a fuel problem or fuel delivery problem.
Something is missing in the information....
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I'm having trouble with the readings whiskers is reporting.
My concern is with such a huge "test reading" of 4.5 ohms (or previous 5.0 ohms).
I'm no electrical expert - so I spoke today with 3 private electrical service shops in town.
Each said pretty much the same thing, to wit:
"When touching probes together on a digital multimeter it should read 0 or very near 0" (0.3, 0.6, 0.4, etc.)
And: "Readings which are not zero, or very near zero," (such as whisker's 4.5>5.0 ohms) - "is indicative of a faulty tool or bad battery in the tool."
There is usually no adjustment on a digital multimeter to "0" the meter before starting.
If he is using an analog meter (pointer with scale) these must be "zero'd" before taking the reading of the injector. There is a small screw or knob to perform this zero-ing.
Photos or a video of whiskers taking his reading with his meter would sure be helpful.
If our equipment is faulty - or the testing is faulty - we've moved no closer to a fix, nor have we ruled anything out.
Stig
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Small nick in O-ring should be OK.
Would be heck trying to find replacement.
O-rings are not a problem - just go to the O-ring store, there's usually one in any decent-sized town.
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I'm having trouble with the readings whiskers is reporting.
My concern is with such a huge "test reading" of 4.5 ohms (or previous 5.0 ohms).
I'm no electrical expert - so I spoke today with 3 private electrical service shops in town.
Each said pretty much the same thing, to wit:
"When touching probes together on a digital multimeter it should read 0 or very near 0" (0.3, 0.6, 0.4, etc.)
And: "Readings which are not zero, or very near zero," (such as whisker's 4.5>5.0 ohms) - "is indicative of a faulty tool or bad battery in the tool."
There is usually no adjustment on a digital multimeter to "0" the meter before starting.
If he is using an analog meter (pointer with scale) these must be "zero'd" before taking the reading of the injector. There is a small screw or knob to perform this zero-ing.
Photos or a video of whiskers taking his reading with his meter would sure be helpful.
If our equipment is faulty - or the testing is faulty - we've moved no closer to a fix, nor have we ruled anything out.
Stig
Right on all points, as usual. The issue with the 4.5 or 5 ohms is probably contact resistance INSIDE the meter. I have had to open up and goober the range switch and fuse clips on a cheapo meter here. Even had to do that on a Simpson 260 I have had since 1960! Go figure! Contact cleaner and lube...
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Ok all, I’ve read back through all pages and redid all the test and everything checks out and still nothing. I have decided it is some type of fuel thing. When I spray starter fluid in the air breather it will run as long as I keep spraying a little in there. So I don’t know what to do at this point. I’ve been looking for a rental diagnostic tool but my searches are coming up short.
Any other ideas?
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Ok all, I’ve read back through all pages and redid all the test and everything checks out and still nothing. I have decided it is some type of fuel thing. When I spray starter fluid in the air breather it will run as long as I keep spraying a little in there. So I don’t know what to do at this point. I’ve been looking for a rental diagnostic tool but my searches are coming up short.
Any other ideas?
At this point don't think you're going to find a diagnostic tool.
If you are motivated enough to purchase a subscription from cyclepedia.com - you can then open a service ticket with them and describe all you've done so far with your scooter.
I do not have a lot of experience with their techs - but what I did have was helpful - and they did write the USA Kymco service manuals for many of our scooters. (including the LIKE200i)
Please give us a report if you decide to go that way.
good luck!
Stig
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I agree with Stig, as usual. Not only agree but will add that a diagnostic tool is going to do no good because your particular fuel problem would not likely show on ANY diagnostic tool.
One of the issues of our helping in this problem is that not ALL of our questions get answered. Like confirming the 5 ohm and 4.5 ohm meter test. That can change a lot. There are others but that is one example right up front. The main mission here is, like I have already stated, is to help solve the problem. But you have to supply good answers to every question.
I hope you eventually find the problem.
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@stig, thanks I will look into it and see how much it cost. @carl not sure what questions you need answered as far as the ohms go on the injector, my meter reads 5.5 when I touch them together and 17.8 on the injector, there is no adjustment on my meter to zero it out. From reading back through I was supposed to subtract the 5.5 from the reading and that was my resistance
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I agree with Stig, as usual. Not only agree but will add that a diagnostic tool is going to do no good because your particular fuel problem would not likely show on ANY diagnostic tool.
This problem will show instantly on any dedicated diagnostic tool. Just one example: if your camshaft position sensor (CPS) isn't reading correctly, the injector will be spraying at the wring time and also the spark will arrive at the plug at the wrong time. Here's how AutoBlog describes it:"If your vehicle idles roughly, stalls frequently, has a drop in engine power, stumbles frequently, has reduced gas mileage, or accelerates slowly, these are all signs your camshaft position sensor could be failing." There's no way you can figure this out with a multi-meter. It's absolutely impossible on a fuel-injected machine. With a carburetor, yes. But with fuel-injection, never. It's impossible.
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JJ, I agree with what you said. However, the OP says the engine will start and run as long as he sprays something flammable into the intake. That kinda lets the whole system off the hook except for fuel delivery. This is where the trouble shoot gets derailed with variables. The multimeter is suspect since the test leads shorted shows 4.5 to 5 ohms. This opens the question as to its accuracy. I am guessing his injector is OK since he says the thing reads normal plus 4.5 to 5 ohms AND the injectors traditionally are nearly bullet-proof. Anything beyond this is frustrating for points already mentioned.
He may have an intermittent relay, a vacuum leak, plugged fuel pump inlet and none of this stuff shows up on CELP light except maybe the relay. I suspect something really simple that would not show up on anything except a direct test like fuel delivery but that would never work in this instance.
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JJ, I agree with what you said. However, the OP says the engine will start and run as long as he sprays something flammable into the intake.
True, but there's more moving parts at play here. The OBD2 diagnostics on my 20 year old Chevy analyzes over 5,000 components. We've discussed one single item. There could be 4,999 more to be analyzed on the subject Kymco 200. It's no different if it's a Corvette or a BMW or a Kymco. It's going to be a challenge to analyze them all with a multi-meter. That's why I say it's impossible to do it by hand.
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JJ, 5000 things on a Chevvy? Quite possibly. It is pretty sophisticated. The EFI on the Kymco is VERY basic. I have the reader for the Kymco system and they're are not that involved. No sir. Not even that many sensors.
MAP, TPS, ISC, O2, ambient air (some have inlet air temp, also), ambient air pressure, 12 volts, 5 volts (indirectly), rpm, O2 sensor heat, spark advance (displays what has been programmed), engine temp and 11 codes. That's it. Plus, you don't need the Kymco tool to get any of the 11 fault codes because the blinking CELP light gives you those. By the way, the 11 trouble codes is on the DT300i but the Like 200i is similar. No codes indicate no problem as far as the ECU is concerned. There is no code for no gasoline.
I would be overjoyed to be proven wrong and whiskers got his bike running.
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Re-read EVERYTHING from first post to last. These things stand out:
1. 500 miles on 2013 Like 200i, a brand and model known for quick, easy starts.
2. Was running normally then just quit.
3. Starter burned up by constantly cranking trying to get past "she's wantin' to start" point. (If it does not start in 2 or three engine revolutions, STOP with the start button!)
4. Two multimeters on ohms scale read 4.5 to 5 ohms with leads shorted together: MAJOR PROBLEM!
5. Engine starts and runs by spraying flammable fluid into air intake.
6. Disconnected fuel line shows fuel discharge when key on.
7. Fuel injector sprays small amount of fuel when key on and start switch pressed, so small it evaporates quickly.
Take injector to some shop that can test it for proper operation, spray pattern, volume, etc. This will either show a deficiency or rule out the injector as the problem cause. The injector gets 12 volts any time the fuel pump relay closes and the fuel pump runs. The injector is opened by a switched ground from the ECU.
MY re-reading everything shows you HAVE answered all questions so I apologize for accusing you otherwise. Please forgive me! Please report what the injector test shows. We will go from there. I am betting the injector is plugged with some decomposed ethanol fuel glop.
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Hello? Anybody home? Six days....you OK?
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I took the injector out and built a contraption to clean it under pressure, it sprayed a nice mist while I did that, when I put the injector back on the bike it was one single pee stream again. So I decided to buy a fuel pressure test kit to see what the fuel pressure was, it didn’t even move the needle. The is a pic of the gage I used attached and and it is a innova fuel injection pressure test kit #3640
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I took the injector out and built a contraption to clean it under pressure, it sprayed a nice mist while I did that, when I put the injector back on the bike it was one single pee stream again. So I decided to buy a fuel pressure test kit to see what the fuel pressure was, it didn’t even move the needle. The is a pic of the gage I used attached and and it is a innova fuel injection pressure test kit #3640
What did you use to craete pressure during the “contaption”
test - the scooter’s fuel pump ?
If so - was the suction line during both tests coming from the fuel tank with fuel filter between the tank and fuel filter ?
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What did you use to craete pressure during the “contaption”
test - the scooter’s fuel pump ?
If so - was the suction line during both tests coming from the fuel tank with fuel filter between the tank and fuel filter ?
The fuel filter is on the pick-up end of the pump which is submerged in the tank.
There is no 'in-line' fuel filter on a LIKE200I.
Stig
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I took the injector out and built a contraption to clean it under pressure, it sprayed a nice mist while I did that, when I put the injector back on the bike it was one single pee stream again. So I decided to buy a fuel pressure test kit to see what the fuel pressure was, it didn’t even move the needle. The is a pic of the gage I used attached and and it is a innova fuel injection pressure test kit #3640
There's yer sign! Pump pressure very low! Anyone know what the fuel pressure SHOULD BE?
2.5 bar = 36.something psi. Should be 36-37 psi
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The fuel filter is on the pick-up end of the pump which is submerged in the tank.
There is no 'in-line' fuel filter on a LIKE200I.
Stig
Let me ask the question this way then :
What did you use to create pressure at the injector during the “contraption” test - the same fuel pump inside the tank with unchecked fuel filter at the pick-up end ?
The reasoning for my question - injectors normally get tested with a manual operated pressure “contraption” - not with the fuel pump linked to the injector.
A “single pee streem” on an injector is usually caused by a faulty fuel pump, dirty fuel filter, and too little fuel flow to the injector to create pressure.
It would be very strange if the same source of fuel flow (i.e. fuel pump at the inside of this scooter’s tank) creates a perfect spray while the injector has been removed for n bench test, and then suddenly creates a “single pee stream” when re-installed.
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Could not find specs for the Like but fuel pump pressure for the People GT 200i is 3 BAR or 45 PSI.
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Could not find specs for the Like but fuel pump pressure for the People GT 200i is 3 BAR or 45 PSI.
The pressure I posted is actually from the DT300i service manual! Figured it would be close enough since all the fuel pumps seem the same...
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Whiskers, you GOT this! That fuel pump is so easy to get to. I will bet there is a small piece of trash stuck in the relief valve bypassing fuel back to tank. That's probably where the bubbles originated!
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In case you have to investigate and/or replace the LIKE's fuel pump:
The stock LIKE200i fuel pump has "no serviceable parts" according to my manual.
The 0 ring is supposed to be replaced each time you remove the pump from the tank.
No one sells the giant 0 ring - it is attached to the new $+200 pump assembly.
The pump must be eased out of the tank with some effort (like a cork in a bottle) and I returned it with a bit of silicone lube all around. Taking the measurements of the stock pump and after a phone contact with the tech. - I purchased a replacement 30mm HIGHFLOW pump. (ebay advert. said it would fit a Suzuki motorcycle) It's been working great in my 2012 LIKE200i for 7 years.
KYMCO holder accepts a pump this size.... 30mm X 70mm
https://www.highflowfuel.com/i-28316344-quantum-intank-efi-fuel-pump-for-hyosung-ms3-250-scooter-2010-2020-replaces-hyosung-15100hp8800.html (https://www.highflowfuel.com/i-28316344-quantum-intank-efi-fuel-pump-for-hyosung-ms3-250-scooter-2010-2020-replaces-hyosung-15100hp8800.html)
Basically 'plug-and-play' Take a photo if need be to get all connections back in proper places.
Match the wires and hoses, place in the stock KYMCO pump holder and reinsert it back into the tank. Bolt it up and check for leaks.
(https://i.postimg.cc/y8WQk4PH/00000000.jpg)
All kinds of pumps are available - I paid a bit more for the HighFlow as I don't want to repeat this procedure!(https://i.postimg.cc/2ybdCrYc/000000.jpg)
Stock pump is in this metal and plastic holder.....which you will re-use!
(https://i.postimg.cc/9QFzVYy4/0.jpg)
New HighFlow pump installed in holder.
(https://i.postimg.cc/V6MXMWGf/000.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/T3L1pYHG/00.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/8Ck1LpZj/0000.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/x8v7sHCY/00000.jpg)
(This has been edited following loss of photos in orig. post)
Stig
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There! Stig's way better service manual than Kymco!
The 200 bucks from Kymco is because they list the whole assembly. Stig did the legwork to find just the pump! He cheapo Joe like me! He's a genius!
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Quick question on fuel pressure wondering if anyone knows. The small hose from the pump to the outlet inside the tank was deteriorated, I replaced it and now my fuel pressure is perfect while the pump is running when you turn the key on, as soon as the pump stops running the pressure drops back to zero, is it supposed to do that?
Thanks
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See? You the genius! We were all hot for you to replace the pump and YOUR investigation shows a $.98 hose is the culprit!
Yes, the pressure drops to zero whan the pump shuts off. Normal.
So happy for you finding this! Now you have been farther into the fuel system on this model than anyone here! Your discovery leads to one more thing on the troubleshooting checklist. This feedback is vital since this system is typical of most EFI setups on these types of machines. Your results SHOULD be in the service manual!
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Ok yay, need more help, I got this damn thing running, here’s the catch it will only run and crank if I open the throttle full blast, soon as I let off the throttle it dies, we are so close , please help me figure this o w out.
Thanks in advance
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Initialize again.
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What does initialize again mean???? :-\
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What does initialize again mean???? :-\
Here is the page from the Like 200i manual for initializing...
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What does initialize again mean???? :-\
On your cyclepedia.com
Go to fuel system, click on Self Diagnosis
Follow all the steps listed below this bold heading...
Self-Diagnosis Reset Procedure
Try all of them.
Stig
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Here is the page from the Like 200i manual for initializing...
Curious here big blue - what manual is that from?
Does not look like either my printed cyclepedia or my online version.
Thanks, Stig
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It's an old online factory PDF manual that was available for free. I have a copy on my computer. ;)
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Ok everyone I put the new fuel pump in, good pressure, did all the resets etc. it will crank and start if I hold the throttle wide open and then it will run as long as I have the throttle almost 1/4 to 1/2 turn but will not idle, I’m not an expert but something is telling me injector, I took it off again and cleaned it, so that’s where I am.
I just know by the end of the weekend this thing will be working and I will have the wind in my hair once again.
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Can you button it up and ride it very briskly near enough to your house that if it dies it won't give a stroke if you have to push it home?
Perhaps that poor scooter just needs some exercise....and maybe a fresh tank of SHELL premium gas to flush out your injector and fuel line?
If it does throw an embolism. ...you need to be close to the house......
Things are looking good!
Meanwhile we'll look into "scooter won't idle"
Stig
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Please try initialize.
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I did the I initializations and it did nothing, did it twice. The one where you short out the pink wire and the one with the throttle wide open etc. nothing seems to help.
Gonna try and ride it later
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FYI Karl, I’m a navy man myself, HT , well was years ago lol
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FYI Karl, I’m a navy man myself, HT , well was years ago lol
Years ago here, too! 77 was my last year not counting a short try with Birmingham, AL Reserves. That was a short party...
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That’s funny Karl born and raised in bham, lived in a town called forestdale off 78 hwy lol
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That’s funny Karl born and raised in bham, lived in a town called forestdale off 78 hwy lol
Small world!
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Ok I’m gonna get a fuel injector, on my fuel injector there are sever numbers
12/145 06
39-024
And another number that partially rubbed off
C185N03 then it’s scratched out maybe a 0 amd then 1 but can’t tell
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Just like in the vacuum tube days, all the vital identifying information is the first to disappear! I suspect the Kymco part number was on the bag or box that injector was in at the factory and all the inscriptions you see are from the guy who actually made the injector. Injectors seem like spark plugs with different reach, heat, thread diameter, etc. but there is one exact plug that goes in YOUR engine. Kymco part in the Kymco bag with the right part number is IT initially. Substitution later.
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OEM KYMCO parts bag for LIKE200i injector
(https://i.postimg.cc/7LmBhVNc/P1120158.jpg)
D E K A
(https://i.postimg.cc/HkJQM8yS/P1110007.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/cHcDztTR/P1110011.jpg)
Better look at those bottom numbers:
(https://i.postimg.cc/FHsS4Wmk/P1110010.jpg)
Stig
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Whisker, check out the last page of my "Two non-start events" post. The part and pictures of using the scooter system to clear the injector. That "back flush" technique could be used on your injector if its nozzle is anything like the DT. I will bet your injector is full of decomposed rubber hose stuff!
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Ok everyone I’m back, now the scoot has a new fuel pump, a new fuel injector, and now it will not start at all, even with spraying starter fluid in the air intake, I’m at my wits end.
Anything that I may be missing?
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I read all the posts on this and really have no positive answer to get it running and on road....but seven year old machine that has lived life just sitting with only 500 miles and probably never had good "Italian tuneup " on the road---I would first clean fuel tank and entire fuel system, by removing tank if possible, replacing any rubber parts exposed to fuel, making sure if gas cap is vented it actually is, check complete exhaust system for blockage, how about air filter and complete air in take system (bugs/mice could have built nest or used as lunch room) Just thoughts from me.
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Ok everyone I’m back, now the scoot has a new fuel pump, a new fuel injector, and now it will not start at all, even with spraying starter fluid in the air intake, I’m at my wits end.
Anything that I may be missing?
Hey, good to hear from you again!
OK, are we talking a Kymco injector here?
Fully charged battery?
Good spark when grounding the spark plug?
Injector sprays into a can?
Yes?
Stig
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Yes on all those, the spark plug is new, however I may have messed it up when I was only able to run it wide open, it was pretty black when I pulled it out but I cleaned it really good and put the ohm tester on it and it read a good 5k ohms
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Yes on all those, the spark plug is new, however I may have messed it up when I was only able to run it wide open, it was pretty black when I pulled it out but I cleaned it really good and put the ohm tester on it and it read a good 5k ohms
But you need to ground it to see it sparking to prove it receives impulse from ECU and coil.
No spark....we're not going anywhere 😊
If injector is pulsing fuel into a can..
then it is receiving signal from ECU, and pump is working....and should at least start, if we have spark, air and compression.
So, good spark?
Stig
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Hello and good morning, yes we have spark, however when I tested for the spark gas (a lot of gas) shot out of the spark plug hole.
But yes we have spark.
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Please leave spark plug out for several hours.....scoot won't start if combustion chamber is flooded with gas.
Needs to dry out in there.
And, after you've waited for it to dry out in there for several hours - remember, you do NOT touch the throttle of a Kymco LIKE200I when starting it!.
Stig
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Another trick to get something with unknown problem started----put plug in vise, heat red with gas torch, wear gloves screw plug in----bike might start.
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Another way to get rid of the fuel in a flooded engine real quick is just to swing the engine a couple of times while the spark plug has been removed. The excessive fuel will be spitted out real quick. Just leave for 3 to 5 minutes, put the spark plug back in place, and the engine will be ready to be started.
This will prevent the excessive fuel from draining into he oil sump, mixing with oil and interfering with lubrication properties of the oil.
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I left the spark plug out for 7 days put it nack in and nothing, I’m scratching my head. Before the new fuel injector but after the new fuel pump it was start and run but only if throttle was wide open, also it would crank and run for a few seconds with starter fluid now it will not even start up at all, even with a little starter fluid.
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OK
Recommend you go to your www.cyclepedia.com (http://www.cyclepedia.com) manual, search word 'troubleshooting' - click on "engine will not start...."
See what you find after following the steps....
Stig
(https://i.postimg.cc/zGNL2JsP/Capture.jpg)
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Hello all, finally after about 2 years got it running, new fuel injector new fuel pump, started right up amd ran like a dream, let it run for about 10 mins turned it off to put the seat back on to take it for a ride and BAMN, now when I turn the key on the fuel pump runs for about 10 seconds and I hear the fuel relay click amd it runs again for about 10 seconds and it just keeps doing that over and over and over, what can I do or is there anything that you know of that would cause this,