KymcoForum.com
General => General Discussion => Topic started by: aschrauth on March 04, 2022, 04:25:22 AM
-
With the war on Ukraine currently going on our gas prices here have jumped to almost 4.00 a gallon! makes me glad I ride my scooter everyday instead of my car. Just curious, what are the gas prices like in your area? curious to find out.
-
I paid 3.14 in Mt. Pleasant, Iowa, yesterday. I never cry about the price of gas, it's a world market controlled by supply & demand & market traders. I do know that oil companies use every little excuse they can find to jack it up as often as possible. The best way to bite back is to drive less. Having said that, gas pumps take a much smaller piece of my income than back in the 60's when I paid .40 per gallon while making 1.65 per hour. Almost 1/4 of an hour's wages. Most people I know make from 18-35 an hour know, so gas is considerably less of a hit even at 3-4 dollars a gallon. Lots of people were still making 1.00 an hour & the minimum wage was about .75 cents. The best blue collar jobs around here only paid about 2.50 an hour.
-
Paying £1.53 per litre here in the UK to fill the wife’s gas guzzler!
-
It's $.94 per liter here.🙋
($3.57 reg gal.)
We drive maybe 15>20 miles total for both cars each day....so fuel prices will never be a big concern, no matter how high it goes.
I use only 93 Shell in my 2 scooters - which runs $1 more per gal.
Stig
-
Prices averaging 1.60 a liter in Ontario but going up every couple of days.
-
Here in Eastern Pennsylvania, prices rose from $3.99 to $4.39 per gallon since yesterday. Wonder how much higher it will go.
Yes, I am extremely happy to have my scooter as it gets 89 mpg, compared to my 2006 Cadillac Escalade SUV that gets 12-14 mpg. So, will be driving the scooter whenever possible this year. Thankfully spring is on the horizon.
On a related note, I wonder whether there will be an increased interest in two-wheeled riding this summer due to high fuel prices. Although scooters obviously are known as gas sippers, even motorcycles get great mileage compared to most of the trucks and SUVs we are driving around.
-
I paid 3.14 in Mt. Pleasant, Iowa, yesterday. I never cry about the price of gas, it's a world market controlled by supply & demand & market traders. I do know that oil companies use every little excuse they can find to jack it up as often as possible. The best way to bite back is to drive less. Having said that, gas pumps take a much smaller piece of my income than back in the 60's when I paid .40 per gallon while making 1.65 per hour. Almost 1/4 of an hour's wages. Most people I know make from 18-35 an hour know, so gas is considerably less of a hit even at 3-4 dollars a gallon. Lots of people were still making 1.00 an hour & the minimum wage was about .75 cents. The best blue collar jobs around here only paid about 2.50 an hour.
You are correct that fuel prices are a commodity traded on the open market not the refineries. Refineries operate on margins for their profits ( the price difference between the price of crude and and what refined products sell for on the commodity market) oil refineries do not control price. By the way the government makes more per gallon of fuel in taxes then what the refineries make per gallon.
Just like farmers don't control the price of their crops ( commodities traded on the open market).
Biden shut down pipelines and new exploration for oil while approving the Russian pipeline. The US is currently purchasing oil from Russia so essential we are financing the war on the Ukraine people. Not only that but approximately 30% of the fertilizer the US uses is made in Russia from oil. Russia derives 60% of their export income by the sale of oil.
The US is in a catch 22. If we ban petroleum products from Russia the prices will skyrocket even more. If we don't we help finance the atrocities committed against the Ukraine people.
As scooter riders we have low cost transportation to offset the rising prices. Unfortunately food price is affected by the rising cost of oil. From fertilizer, tractors, harvest equipment, transportation to market, distribution to stores all of which take oil.
-
Here in Eastern Pennsylvania, prices rose from $3.99 to $4.39 per gallon since yesterday. Wonder how much higher it will go.
Yes, I am extremely happy to have my scooter as it gets 89 mpg, compared to my 2006 Cadillac Escalade SUV that gets 12-14 mpg. So, will be driving the scooter whenever possible this year. Thankfully spring is on the horizon.
On a related note, I wonder whether there will be an increased interest in two-wheeled riding this summer due to high fuel prices. Although scooters obviously are known as gas sippers, even motorcycles get great mileage compared to most of the trucks and SUVs we are driving around.
Are they still getting any oil out of the ground in Pennsylvania? (or Texas & Oklahoma I wonder)
Is all of our oil imported?
We indeed might see an increase in two wheel riding this spring - dealers could use a little good news.
Stig
-
I paid $3.19 a week ago, saw $3.69 yesterday, hope it won't be over $4 when I have to fill up next
-
Are they still getting any oil out of the ground in Pennsylvania? (or Texas & Oklahoma I wonder)
Is all of our oil imported?
We indeed might see an increase in two wheel riding this spring - dealers could use a little good news.
Stig
There is still some crude oil pumped in PA, along with a fair amount of coal. However, even though PA still has MASSIVE unmined coal reserves, the economics of mining it no longer make sense on a large scale due to the fact that it's a "dirty" form of energy and most power plants have either moved away from it or are in the process of doing so. In my area (a coal-mining region) coal is still a very popular home heating fuel, and still quite affordable compared to home heating oil.
However, the really big source of energy nowadays from an economic and industrial standpoint is natural gas. A large portion of our state (not my area) sits on what is called the Marcellus Shale bed, which contains huge stores of natural gas. Fracking is a major thing here, though our current Democrat governor has not been as kind towards it as previous administrations. My sense, given current events and political winds, is that if a Republican gets elected this fall (current governor finishing his second term and cannot run again) we will see a renewed push on gas drilling in the state, which is good in terms of jobs, economic impact for rural communities and energy prices for America.
-
There is still some crude oil pumped in PA, along with a fair amount of coal. However, even though PA still has MASSIVE unmined coal reserves, the economics of mining it no longer make sense on a large scale due to the fact that it's a "dirty" form of energy and most power plants have either moved away from it or are in the process of doing so. In my area (a coal-mining region) coal is still a very popular home heating fuel, and still quite affordable compared to home heating oil.
However, the really big source of energy nowadays from an economic and industrial standpoint is natural gas. A large portion of our state (not my area) sits on what is called the Marcellus Shale bed, which contains huge stores of natural gas. Fracking is a major thing here, though our current Democrat governor has not been as kind towards it as previous administrations. My sense, given current events and political winds, is that if a Republican gets elected this fall (current governor finishing his second term and cannot run again) we will see a renewed push on gas drilling in the state, which is good in terms of jobs, economic impact for rural communities and energy prices for America.
Fracking is done to obtain oil,... or natural gas?
Yeah - geez - if you can obtain it properly burning gas has got to be better than burning coal, I'd think?
The little I know of the people who have to go in those coal mines to make a living - it looks pretty tough.
Our major natural resources over here in Ohio seems to be pick-ups, Hondas and corn.
Stig
-
Fracking is done to obtain oil,... or natural gas?
Yeah - geez - if you can obtain it properly burning gas has got to be better than burning coal, I'd think?
The little I know of the people who have to go in those coal mines to make a living - it looks pretty tough.
Our major natural resources over here in Ohio seems to be pick-ups, Hondas and corn.
Stig
And deer! I have a friend who farms in Carroll County. I get out there a couple times every year to hunt. Love the landscape over there, and great deer hunting.
-
Are they still getting any oil out of the ground in Pennsylvania? (or Texas & Oklahoma I wonder)
Is all of our oil imported?
We indeed might see an increase in two wheel riding this spring - dealers could use a little good news.
Stig
as of 2020 the world's top 4 oil producing countries are: (in order of % or world production)
1. USA
2. Saudi Arabia
3. Russia
4. Canada
The US became a net exporter of oil for the first time in 2020 but became an importer again in 2021
source: https://www.investopedia.com/investing/worlds-top-oil-producers/
-
Last filled the tank in my AK for $3.24/gal 3 days ago and now it's $3.39/gal. That's for regular fuel.
My wife was thinking she wanted to sell her Honda Metropolitan since she wasn't riding it as much as before. At least last year she didn't ride it as much. But as gas prices go up she's changed her mind and plans to ride it more. 100 mpg is much better than 32-34 mpg for our compact car.
I switch our home to Geothermal 11 years ago so don't burn fuel for heat or AC. I turned off all LP gas to the house at that time. Iowa is generating more and more power from wind generators. The state generates 57% of our electricity from wind now so less and less reliance on gas and oil for power. Many of the insurance and financial businesses here, and we are a hub for those nationwide, have been adding large solar arrays. One mega-church just down the street even has their own wind turbine for some supplemental power.
-
Fracking is done to obtain oil,... or natural gas?
Yeah - geez - if you can obtain it properly burning gas has got to be better than burning coal, I'd think?
The little I know of the people who have to go in those coal mines to make a living - it looks pretty tough.
Our major natural resources over here in Ohio seems to be pick-ups, Hondas and corn.
Stig
franking is to release oil trapped in rock formations.
For natural gas the US has one of the largest supplies in the world of natural gas which is extremely clean burning compared to coal. China was bringing online a new coal fired power plant ever week for a few years. Was a extremely cheap source of energy.
A couple of interesting articles I read about the wind turbine blades. They don't have a long lifespan and unable to be recycled. They are disposing of them by burying them in the areas that were strip mining for coal in Wyoming.
Another fallacy are electric vehicles are clean energy. Do some research on the disposing of spent batteries that contains heavy metals. Also research where some of these metals are mined and the contamination they create along with the health issues these people experience.
If you truly want clean energy hydrogen is the way to go. The byproduct of burning hydrogen is water.
-
Northern California, I paid 4.39 (best price around) this morning but I'm not in a big urban area. At the local Pilot Truck Stop it's 5.09.
In urban areas like the SF Bay Area it's been over 5.00 for a week, approaching 6.00. I heard that in some parts of LA/So Cal it's over 7.00. Here we have the the highest state imposed taxes on fuel in the US I believe. Thanks Gov Newsom you Rat-Bastard.
-
There is also a extremely large supply of natural gas trapped on the ocean floor. In fact I watched a documentary that said if all the natural gas was released on the ocean floor the world could be consumed by fire.. I guess we can add that to super volcanos, asteroids, nuclear wars another source of demise for mankind.
-
..
A couple of interesting articles I read about the wind turbine blades. They don't have a long lifespan and unable to be recycled. They are disposing of them by burying them in the areas that were strip mining for coal in Wyoming.
Another fallacy are electric vehicles are clean energy. Do some research on the disposing of spent batteries that contains heavy metals. Also research where some of these metals are mined and the contamination they create along with the health issues these people experience.
If you truly want clean energy hydrogen is the way to go. The byproduct of burning hydrogen is water.
Not entirely true. Wind turbine blades cannot be broken down into their chemical or base materials very well but they can be recycled in other ways. It is true that the Wyoming photo and story has been circulating everywhere but one story or even a few don't tell the entire truth. There is a new company that started up in Newton, IA and also others in a few other places which specialize in grinding up old wind turbine blades and the pellets to be used in concrete and other materials for structure as well as being recycled in several other ways.
I agree with the rest of what you said.
-
My understanding is that fracking in a technology for extracting oil, natural gas, geothermal energy, or water
As Dennis Miller used to say, that is my opinion, I could be wrong.
Mancashire
-
Not entirely true. Wind turbine blades cannot be broken down into their chemical or base materials very well but they can be recycled in other ways. It is true that the Wyoming photo and story has been circulating everywhere but one story or even a few don't tell the entire truth. There is a new company that started up in Newton, IA and also others in a few other places which specialize in grinding up old wind turbine blades and the pellets to be used in concrete and other materials for structure as well as being recycled in several other ways.
I agree with the rest of what you said.
Windmill blades are being recycled as you say. They are cut into sections and ground up for concrete filler. They travel on interstate 27 near my house cut up in sections, but going South, away from Newton. I think they already have a facility in Missouri. They do not last forever. Neither does anything else, cars, trucks, roads, power stations, pipelines, container ships, you name it. That is a non issue.
-
If you truly want clean energy hydrogen is the way to go. The byproduct of burning hydrogen is water.
That was my understanding too KK, but it’s gone awfully quiet on that front. Too many vested interests in the ICE infrastructure- and now maybe battery technologies?…
-
That was my understanding too KK, but it’s gone awfully quiet on that front. Too many vested interests in the ICE infrastructure- and now maybe battery technologies?…
Hydrogen still requires breaking down water into hydrogen and oxygen using a lot of energy. More energy than you can get out of the hydrogen in your vehicle.
The hydrogen needs to be stored in high pressure tanks both for transport to the fueling point and in the vehicle itself. This adds more expense to an already expensive fuel.
Also hydrogen vehicles still use batteries, so you still have the problems of battery manufacture and disposal that electric cars have, although on a smaller scale.
There is a good video about current state of hydrogen powered vehicles here
https://youtu.be/C5Z4_kgT8sI (https://youtu.be/C5Z4_kgT8sI)
-
Interesting, thanks Wiz.
-
compressed air is the way to go, range similar to electric, but 3 minute fill ups
-
IMO gas is not more expensive, I even dare to say it's way too cheap compared with our continousely raised imcomes during last, lets say, 30 years. No one is forced to drive a gas-guzzling V6 or V8.
In comparison to a vehicles overall costs is fuel a marginal post.
-
California is the winner! Today's paper says the average price of regular here is $5.15/gallon! I can hardly wait to see what it will be tomorrow.
-
IMO gas is not more expensive, I even dare to say it's way too cheap compared with our continousely raised imcomes during last, lets say, 30 years. No one is forced to drive a gas-guzzling V6 or V8.
In comparison to a vehicles overall costs is fuel a marginal post.
my '02 Silverado with a 5.3V8 gets better mileage than my '05 Tacoma with a 2.7L four banger
(for all practical purposes, they get the same, 20±)
-
In Helsinki, Finland the regular 95 octane is now from 2.049 € per liter. It was 1.850 before Putin war. My 16 y old Nissan Micra does 5.5 liter per 100 kilometers, means 12€ for gas per 100 km. On motorway more, but more than 90 kmh the noise inside car is just too much :)
Situation gets worse, for everyone.
Update 08.3. from 2.149 €
-
Less than a week ago I filled up for $3.24 a gallon. Yesterday just about every gas station was $3.99. I'm betting they all go over 4 bucks a gallon in the next day or two.
-
March 1 I filled up the AK at $3.23/gal at my favorite station. Yesterday that same station was showing $3.59/gal and all other stations were higher as usual.
-
it's funny...if you held a gun to my head I wouldn't be able to tell you what gas costs. I have driven a company car for the past 25 years (gas is paid with card) so never look at prices. I fill up the family car a handful of times each year (as does the wife)...but still never pay attention to the price. Others I know can tell you to the penny what gas costs..
-
it's funny...if you held a gun to my head I wouldn't be able to tell you what gas costs. I have driven a company car for the past 25 years (gas is paid with card) so never look at prices. I fill up the family car a handful of times each year (as does the wife)...but still never pay attention to the price. Others I know can tell you to the penny what gas costs..
I use a company card too, but I own the company
like my dumpster company, I'm gonna hafta add a fuel surcharge to my bills
-
In Mass there was a Shell station that gave you a free car wash if you bought $3 of gas.
I had to roll my Beetle in there on fumes to get that wash.
(not that long ago I paid well under a dollar per gal using my grocery gas points.....
$4 here today
Stig
-
In Mass there was a Shell station that gave you a free car wash if you bought $3 of gas.
I had to roll my Beetle in there on fumes to get that wash.
(not that long ago I paid well under a dollar per gal using my grocery gas points.....
$4 here today
Stig
I remember sub $3 fill ups with my beetle as well
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11uvGEK5b3Q (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11uvGEK5b3Q)
-
In Mass there was a Shell station that gave you a free car wash if you bought $3 of gas.
I had to roll my Beetle in there on fumes to get that wash.
(not that long ago I paid well under a dollar per gal using my grocery gas points.....
$4 here today
Stig
Maybe this season or soon they'll give you a free car if you bought a full tank of gas. May get to costing the same.
-
Maybe this season or soon they'll give you a free car if you bought a full tank of gas. May get to costing the same.
Funny you should mention free cars....
In my city in western Mass there was a Buick dealer who was giving anyone who purchased one of the top-o-the-line Buicks ("Park Avenue?") a free Honda car. One of those little ones they first sold here.
Stig
-
I remember when we had to change the gas pumps from gallon to liter measurement because they wouldn’t register price over .99 per gallon. Overtime, the price of most items will rise. We complain here in the US about the price of our gas while it is so very much less costly here than other areas. Yet as one who is living on a fixed income, I find it quite easy to commiserate with those with limited means.
-
I remember when we had to change the gas pumps from gallon to liter measurement because they wouldn’t register price over .99 per gallon. Overtime, the price of most items will rise. We complain here in the US about the price of our gas while it is so very much less costly here than other areas. Yet as one who is living on a fixed income, I find it quite easy to commiserate with those with limited means.
ya, in US the pump price was doubled for a while
I'm retired, so I don't go out every day, but today was a PT day, on the way there, I observed significantly less traffic, it appears that $4/gal is that tipping point that curbs unnecessary travel
-
I worked with my dad running a Sunoco station back in the early sixties. We would be changing the prices 1 or 2 times a week because of gas wars among dealers. I remember getting 5 gals of regular for $1.00. Guess them days are long gone!
-
April of 2020 I paid $.37 a gal at a Kroger station. $.92 off per gal with my grocery points.
I considered filling the bed of my Silvertomato 1500....but daughter talked 👄 me out of it.
Stig
-
NW Ohio area here, gas is 4.09 per gal and up !! .40 cents in the last week. If it keeps going, my motorhome might as well stay in storage... Some experts are saying we will see over 5 and close to 6 a gallon before things slow down. We shouldnt complain though with wages now at 15 or more per hour....that is what the govt says anyway. We should not be worrying though, the Pres. feels our pain just ask him........
-
Filled the tank in my Corolla tonight when the long lines were way down. I get gas at Costco since it's just down the street and usually significantly less cost than other places nearby and they also have Top Tier fuel. They have 3 islands with 2 pumps each, both sides. During the day there is usually a line at every lane of pumps of at least 5-7 vehicles besides the 2 at each side of the islands. But at night or early in the morning there is usually an empty pump to pull up to. It amazes me every time I go and there is one or two empty pumps to pull up to so the pump is on the right of your vehicle, but on the other side there are still 2-3 vehicles waiting in line just because they are waiting for a pump on the same side as the gas filler is on their vehicle. ALL pumps in the entire area near me have hoses that will easily reach to both sides of any vehicle, car-truck-SUV. So I always pull up past everyone else to the empty pump and fill up and am on my way before many of those others even have a pump to pull up to in their line. They'd rather sit there burning and wasting fuel out of laziness or lack of knowledge. I know they are some of the loudest complainers about the cost of gas yet they are the biggest wasters of it. It frustrates me to see such waste. Gas costs plenty much these days and will get worse before it gets better. I'd think people would be smart enough to want to avoid wasting gas sitting on idle when they don't have to. I guess I'm wrong about that.
BTW - On my ride today I saw gas prices for regular on both sides of the metro area at $3.89/gal. Costco had it for $3.59/gal... for now. Tomorrow it may go up.
Premium gas at Costco is $4.19/gal and other places $4.24, $4.29, $4.34 or higher per gallon depending where.
-
BP. SUNOCO. SHELL, etc.......$4.09 ...small town,, SW Ohio
No lines of cars....maybe a few at the Kroger pumps.
Last time I saw lines for gas was evening of 9/11. It was crazy.
6 AM next morning 🌄 I was the only car at the pumps!
Stig
-
Filled the wife's Ranger Rover this morning with 82 litres of diesel. £126.20* Ouch!
* $165.97 US at today's exchange rate
-
Filled the wife's Ranger Rover this morning with 82 litres of diesel. £126.20* Ouch!
Ok
* $165.97 US at today's exchange rate
Around $7.50 a gallon?
22 gal is a normal fill up for my Silverado.
Ouch indeed!
Stig
-
Around $7.50 a gallon?
22 gal is a normal fill up for my Silverado.
Ouch indeed!
Stig
$9.21 for a UK gallon... Still reeling.
-
Around $7.50 a gallon?
22 gal is a normal fill up for my Silverado.
Ouch indeed!
Stig
I've put 22 in my Silverado a few times, but normally 19-20, I don't trust the needle when it gets that low
-
Ouch is correct...my motorhome holds 60 gallons, at about 9 mpg I dont think we will be going anywhere this summer !! Just thinking...my SxS could be over 50 bucks to fill it !!!
-
as of 3/9/22 we just hit $4.25 in missouri.
-
Here in Eastern Pennsylvania, prices rose from $3.99 to $4.39 per gallon since yesterday. Wonder how much higher it will go.
Yes, I am extremely happy to have my scooter as it gets 89 mpg, compared to my 2006 Cadillac Escalade SUV that gets 12-14 mpg. So, will be driving the scooter whenever possible this year. Thankfully spring is on the horizon.
On a related note, I wonder whether there will be an increased interest in two-wheeled riding this summer due to high fuel prices. Although scooters obviously are known as gas sippers, even motorcycles get great mileage compared to most of the trucks and SUVs we are driving around.
I dont see many scooter drivers where I am. I live in a somewhat wealthy community where everyone and their mother can afford a gas guzzling SUV or truck. Come to think it, I cant even remember the last time I filled up my car, I think it was sometime in December
-
Last filled the tank in my AK for $3.24/gal 3 days ago and now it's $3.39/gal. That's for regular fuel.
My wife was thinking she wanted to sell her Honda Metropolitan since she wasn't riding it as much as before. At least last year she didn't ride it as much. But as gas prices go up she's changed her mind and plans to ride it more. 100 mpg is much better than 32-34 mpg for our compact car.
I switch our home to Geothermal 11 years ago so don't burn fuel for heat or AC. I turned off all LP gas to the house at that time. Iowa is generating more and more power from wind generators. The state generates 57% of our electricity from wind now so less and less reliance on gas and oil for power. Many of the insurance and financial businesses here, and we are a hub for those nationwide, have been adding large solar arrays. One mega-church just down the street even has their own wind turbine for some supplemental power.
Natural gas prices are another thing that went up as well besides petrol. Lucklily for me my home is all electric. Ww get our energy from coal burning
-
Cheapest gas locally is $5.10 ($5.099) a gallon for regular. $5.50 for premium. ::)
-
I confess. I never pay any attention to the price of premium gas. None of my vehicles uses it so that grade of fuel is just not important to me.
Everything I have uses regular. Times like these make me glad for that... at least.
-
I wonder whether there will be an increased interest in two-wheeled riding this summer due to high fuel prices.
The motorcycle shops are empty - except for Indians. They say they can't get any normal motorcycles for the coming season. Small bikes are sold before they're loaded onto the ships in Taiwan. 6 months ahead. I'm not sure if it's a local issue, or more wide-spread.
-
Admittedly this place is a high, but Shoreline WA (1st ring 'burb N of Seattle) yesterday..
(https://www.advrider.com/f/attachments/jpeg_20220311_175424_7870484013162165474-jpg.3562903/)
-
Admittedly this place is a high, but Shoreline WA (1st ring 'burb N of Seattle) yesterday..
Filled my 2 gal gas can with SHELL premo V-Power yesterday .....didn't look at the per gal price - but as I drove off I noticed my scoots were going to get over $11 worth of gas :)
Americans fuss....but most* of us could survive just fine if gas prices went a lot higher.
Stig
*Most - but my youngest son is hurting as he logs 120 miles a day in his Civic to his work site.
-
franking is to release oil trapped in rock formations.
For natural gas the US has one of the largest supplies in the world of natural gas which is extremely clean burning compared to coal. China was bringing online a new coal fired power plant ever week for a few years. Was a extremely cheap source of energy.
A couple of interesting articles I read about the wind turbine blades. They don't have a long lifespan and unable to be recycled. They are disposing of them by burying them in the areas that were strip mining for coal in Wyoming.
Another fallacy are electric vehicles are clean energy. Do some research on the disposing of spent batteries that contains heavy metals. Also research where some of these metals are mined and the contamination they create along with the health issues these people experience.
If you truly want clean energy hydrogen is the way to go. The byproduct of burning hydrogen is water.
In my area we have a number of large wind turbines, been there for many, many years, go past them frequently and never saw them replacing blades. Routine maintence seems to be about every 5 years, even then never saw the blades come off. Each turbine creates enough electricity to supply over 1400 homes each year !!
Some folks complain about noise, but I have parked my car and sat outside for hours and barely can hear anything, I am closer to the turbines than any homes by far. The University has been looking for dead birds for years to create a complaint, but very few have been found !! We have many solar panel companies in our area and solar fields as well. I see more maintence being done on solar panels and they take far more space/ land than the wind turbines. In our area the permit cost is rediculous for a wind turbine, but cheap for solar panels.....how does that make any sense? If they want folks to use clean energy, the politics need to keep there noses out of it. To charge over 5 x the cost for wind permits as they do for solar makes no sense, other than payoff to the mfgrs
-
$4.20 to fill my k-pipe