KymcoForum.com
Scooters - 125 to 300 => Agility 125 => Topic started by: jstluise on April 14, 2012, 08:02:26 PM
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I've been having issues with my battery being drained, leaving me to kick start it sometimes. The battery isn't very old, so I suspected the electrical system is having issues. I confirmed that today.
I removed the battery from the system, kick started it, and measured the voltage on the system.
Warm idle: ~17V (running lights are functioning)
Rev: ~20V
Idle with brake light: ~6.5V
Turn signals don't even work...not enough power to run the relay. When revving, the turn signals would come on but not flash.
I've been driving it everyday, and everything functions fine (besides the kick starting issue), so I guess my battery has been taking the brunt of the electrical load...not sure.
Scoot has 8200 km on it, and I've heard about the regulators going out around this time. Are these symptoms of that? What else could go wrong and is there any other troubleshooting I can do?
Thanks!
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Your regulator fried your battery. There should be no more than 14.5 volts above idle speed. One of your diodes is shorted allowing more voltage thru. Replace both the Reg, and the battery. Everything you describe is the way it happens...
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Thanks for the response. Yeah, I figured it was the regulator. And yes, my battery is fried...confirmed that when I put it on the charger. Good sources on a regulator? eBay?
I'll pick up a new battery and regulator and I should be good to go.
Also, this happened to me on a few mornings: started up just fine, let it idle 3-4 minutes while I got my gear on, drove out of the garage no problem, but when I went to give it a little more throttle to pull out on the road, I lost power/it stalled for 3-4 seconds. Then it recovered from the stall and took off just fine. Happened about 3 mornings about a week ago and that was it. The way it stalled seemed like the ignition cutting out, rather than fuel. Wondering if an electrical issue like I am having could screw up the ignition like that...weird though because it wouldn't happen throughout a ride. The mornings were warm, too...55F.
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Ebay is fine for regulators. You will find them as low as 3 bucks. Pay attention to the shipping info tho. Stadium Yamaha is the source for OEM.
Don't sweat the stalling.Try a new plug. Idle is hell on plugs.
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Couple questions: can overloading the electrical system cause the regulator to fail?
and, are the regulators the same between different models?
A few months ago, I was testing out an auxiliary running light to see if my electrical system could handle it. I got back from a ride and my battery was dead...so it couldn't handle it and I stopped using it. Could this be a cause of the regulator failing?
I was looking around online and was planning to call a few local places, but I was curious if the regulator is shared between different models of scoots. If so, which ones? For example, will a regulator for an Agility 50 work for an Agility 125? I figured out any 4-pin GY6 regulator will work, specifically for the 152QMI GY6. $8 on eBay.
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Good score on the Reg.
Yes you did fry it with the lamp. The diodes are rated at 35amps@ Theoretically that is 140 amps they can handle but that is PEAK not continuous.
At least it was just the reg/batt.
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Good score on the Reg.
Yes you did fry it with the lamp. The diodes are rated at 35amps@ Theoretically that is 140 amps they can handle but that is PEAK not continuous.
At least it was just the reg/batt.
The running light is a PIAA 35W, combined with the stock 35W headlamp only pulls around 6 amps, plus the 5/20W brake light. Doesn't come close to 35 amps, which is why I am curious. I've heard people running 55/60W bulbs without issues...maybe the extra 10-15W for my setup just put it over the charging system's capabilities? Still doesn't seem like I should have blown the regulator that way (for what it is rated for).
Before all of this happened (before I installed the aux lamp), I noticed my starter not acting a little weak. It would turn over fine, but if the motor was on the compression stroke, there would be a slight hesitation for the starter to overcome the extra force. On a fully charged battery (bench charging), the starter had some extra umph!
I never did check the charging system since I bought it last year (PO put in a new battery right when I bought it). I'm wondering if something else is up with my charging system. I'll get the new regulator in and check it out. Hopefully the generator is okay.
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Watts, and amps are different. W=VxA. 12volts times 37amps = 444 watts. I do not know your stator but the regulator cannot handle 400 watts. The rectifier section (diodes) can handle 35 amps. (I added up 37 amps continuous). Turn on a blinker, and it is over. There are buffers built in (capacitors) but I really don't know the tru peak rating the regulator can maintain. You can't reason your way out of it. Physics Bro!
Are you a Lawyer by chance?
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Watts, and amps are different. W=VxA. 12volts times 37amps = 444 watts. I do not know your stator but the regulator cannot handle 400 watts. The rectifier section (diodes) can handle 35 amps. (I added up 37 amps continuous). Turn on a blinker, and it is over. There are buffers built in (capacitors) but I really don't know the tru peak rating the regulator can maintain. You can't reason your way out of it. Physics Bro!
Are you a Lawyer by chance?
Not a lawyer, but I am an engineer. I am not sure what you meant above...maybe you didn't understand my post.
A 35W bulb pulls ~3 amps @ 12V (35W = 12V * 2.9A). With both my main bulb (35W) on my auxiliary (35W) on, 6 amps is required. Adding the brake light (20W) and the blinkers (2 * 5W) gives you a total of 100W of power requiring 8.3 amps @ 12 volts. (not sure on the exact wattage of the brake and turn signal bulbs, but I think I'm close).
The stator is rated at 144W @ 5000 rpm, but who knows how good that spec is.
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I'm no expert in electronics, but I know more than most. I see you used 12V for your math. Factor in that the regulator regulates the stator output to 14.4V max, that may bust your 144W max....Just saying!
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Yeah Shaka! To the rescue. I looked at the 6a as each bulb, and the 20w as amps. + the 5w form the other thing. That's how I came up w/ 22.7 gigawatts. The idea is the system is built for what it has. Adding kazoo's, and whirly gigs are just not engineered into it. You could switch to LED's, and use load resistors for the blinkers. That would allow for another driving lamp. Switch All the bulbs on the scoot. It'll cost about 20 bucks on ebay, and they will last as long as the scoot.
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Yep...switch out all your driving lights and such to LEDs and you will free up some extra power. As to those that are running 55W headlights...they are just gonna burn out there their electrical system, same as you, or melt their headlight housing...whichever comes first. These scoots were not designed to run any accessories! You have to make cuts to be able add additional. ;)
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Sad but true... I've been always thinking on how to improve night visibility for my Super 8. I really need more light. What bulb (35w) can I consider that is brighter or that can give me improved lighting? I'm just afraid to install aftermarket aux light that will just fry my system. Considering the Super 8 having 2 bulbs, It should give more light, stock. Other single headlighted scoots are even brighter.
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I'm no expert in electronics, but I know more than most. I see you used 12V for your math. Factor in that the regulator regulates the stator output to 14.4V max, that may bust your 144W max....Just saying!
Yes, I agree with this. The reason I was using 12V was to get to the original point, which was that the regulator is rated for 35A and with the load on the electrical system you don't even come close to that (even if you use 14.4V). Just looking for a better explanation on how the regulator can fail when the load is well under what the diodes are rated for... To me, in this situation, it is the charging system (stator/generator) that is overloaded, not the regulator, and that failure should occur there first before anything happens to the regulator. Granted, all of this is based on the original claim of a 35A rating for the regulator...I didn't see a spec in the FSM to verify this.
That's how I came up w/ 22.7 gigawatts.
That is way more than is needed to power the flux capacitor...
You could switch to LED's, and use load resistors for the blinkers. That would allow for another driving lamp.
Switching your blinkers to LEDs and using load resistors completely defeats the purpose.
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Sad but true... I've been always thinking on how to improve night visibility for my Super 8. I really need more light. What bulb (35w) can I consider that is brighter or that can give me improved lighting? I'm just afraid to install aftermarket aux light that will just fry my system. Considering the Super 8 having 2 bulbs, It should give more light, stock. Other single headlighted scoots are even brighter.
PIAA has 35W bulbs that produce the equivalent amount of light as a 70W bulb. This is what I got as my auxiliary lamp, and it is MUCH brighter than my stock 35W bulb. I am just going to install a relay so my main headlight turns off when my auxiliary lamp is turned on...this will prevent overloading my electrical system. Either that, or switch all bulbs to LED and get a load-independent blinker relay...that may free up enough to run both headlights at once. That was my original plan but haven't got around to it yet.
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PIAAs cost an arm and a leg here. Equivalent to a week's salary. Anyway, can you tell me the model of this PIAA bulb? Is it a motorcycle specific bulb or a car bulb that comes in pairs? I might just ask my brother in the U.S. to buy for me. Lol! Thanks! BTW, I'm referring just to the headlight bulbs of my Super 8.
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You could switch to LED's, and use load resistors for the blinkers. That would allow for another driving lamp.
Switching your blinkers to LEDs and using load resistors completely defeats the purpose.
Again I error ed. I was think the electronic flasher but load just came to mind... Easy now boys. Mercy I cry.
Maybe a Flux Cap tho...
There are loads (no pun) of shops that specialize in re winding stators for more out put. Perhaps that is an option.
http://www.google.com/search?client=opera&rls=en&q=re+wind+stator+for+more+current&sourceid=opera&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&channel=suggest (http://www.google.com/search?client=opera&rls=en&q=re+wind+stator+for+more+current&sourceid=opera&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&channel=suggest)
That is a google for how to's but I'm sure you can find a local shop.
My thinking on the reg being the weak link should be correct. I can't see building a stator that would fail before the "fuse" so to speak.
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I changed my park lights to multi LEDs. It may not fully light the road, but makes your scoot very visible at night. Sometimes, when the streetlights are bright, I just use my park lights when coasting. Having LEDs for park lights is a power saver instead of using headlights during daytime. No need to install daytime running lights.
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PIAAs cost an arm and a leg here. Equivalent to a week's salary. Anyway, can you tell me the model of this PIAA bulb? Is it a motorcycle specific bulb or a car bulb that comes in pairs? I might just ask my brother in the U.S. to buy for me. Lol! Thanks! BTW, I'm referring just to the headlight bulbs of my Super 8.
The auxiliary light I got was the PIAA 004 series: http://www.piaa.com/powersports-lamps/ps-halogen-004.html (http://www.piaa.com/powersports-lamps/ps-halogen-004.html)
This lamp uses an H3 bulb so I used the 35W Xtreme White Plus bulb (70W equivalent). Yeah, the PIAAs are spendy, but I was patient and found a killer deal on eBay for a new set of lamps.
Not sure what type of bulb is in your Super 8 (H4?), but it looks like the only 35W bulb that PIAA has is H3. If it is H4, there are A LOT of options...just switching to a different temperature bulb (white vs. halogen) will help you see better, even if it puts out the same amount of light. I noticed this with the Xtreme White bulb I have.
Now that I think about it, your headlight must be H4, since H3 is not a dual beam bulb. Either that or the weird type of bulb that is in my Agility.
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Super 8 bulbs are H4. I will try to look for other color bulbs here. Car H4 have high wattage and might fry my system, cook my lens, or both.
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Super 8 bulbs are H4. I will try to look for other color bulbs here. Car H4 have high wattage and might fry my system, cook my lens, or both.
Yeah, most H4 bulbs are 55/60W, which is probably too much, even though people say they run them. I would look into a 35W HID conversion kit. That will get you plenty of light and only require 35W. I wish my Agility had an H4 bulb...HID would be sweet.
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There are loads (no pun) of shops that specialize in re winding stators for more out put. Perhaps that is an option.
That is a google for how to's but I'm sure you can find a local shop.
My thinking on the reg being the weak link should be correct. I can't see building a stator that would fail before the "fuse" so to speak.
Yeah I've read about rewinding, and also about upgrading to the 11 pole stator, though that involves replacing quite a few parts. I also saw a writeup that talks about modifying the current stator to use a full-wave rectifier (instead of the stock half-wave), which will give you more DC power: http://scooterrebels.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=1581 (http://scooterrebels.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=1581)
I didn't know that part of the electrical system ran on AC! Interesting. Now the wiring diagram makes a little more sense.
I completely agree that regulator should be the weak link ("fuse"), but I am curious where you got the 35A rating...source? The regulator mentioned in the article is rated for 150W, which is only 12.5A (@12V), which is why I think the 35A rating that you gave is high.
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Won't the HID be too bright for oncoming vehicles? Would converting also to projectors help the HIDs beam pattern?
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Won't the HID be too bright for oncoming vehicles? Would converting also to projectors help the HIDs beam pattern?
You're asking the wrong guy, since I have no experience with HID. I just remember a reading a few posts about people converting. I'd suggest starting a new thread or searching around online for info. I wouldn't be worried about being too bright...unless its pointing directly into their lane you won't have any pissed off drivers. All of my driving is done with my high beam on...granted its not as bright as an HID but I have never had anyone flash me.
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My 35a rating is from the rectifier size alone. You cannot get any larger diodes in epoxy cases than 35a. The larger diodes, are heat sinked metal housings. I was Giving Kymo the benefit of the doubt. (by cases I am referring to the actual diode not the housing it is in)
This link is a larger diode http://www.reuk.co.uk/40-Amp-Blocking-Diode-1N1190A.htm (http://www.reuk.co.uk/40-Amp-Blocking-Diode-1N1190A.htm)
And this is the epoxy case http://compare.ebay.com/like/280740674938?_lwgsi=y<yp=AllFixedPriceItemTypes&var=sbar (http://compare.ebay.com/like/280740674938?_lwgsi=y<yp=AllFixedPriceItemTypes&var=sbar)
Maybe I just should have passed this post...
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I got the regulator yesterday and swapped it out today. Unfortunately, that did not solve my problem...the scoot acted the same for both regulators. I took both regulators and did a resistance check according to the FSM.
(http://i.imgur.com/kkpBn.jpg)
All the resistances showed infinite (open), on both regulators. So either the replacement regulator is bad, or something else is wrong with the scoot and the test isn't accurate. Can someone verify that I should be getting resistances shown in the table?
What else can I do before I order another regulator? In the FSM I see I can measure the resistance of the stator's charging and lighting coil...so I can start there. Anything else?
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I'll give it one more go... The diodes are creating a "bridge rectifier". This blocks the ac pulse one direction only while allowing current to flow in the opposite direction. once two pulses are complete you have a dc flow from the output side. So... The Green wire is ground, and two of the wires going in are your ac stator feeds, and one is +12v out. The 12v line is the one to test for voltage when running if the stator resistance test passes.
Using a multi meter with a specific diode tester will show if the diodes are bad. Since there is no access to each diode they are tested in pairs. You test for blocking/infinite in one direction, and reverse the leads to test for flow/ which should read zero or shorted. I do not think there is a true regulator in this rectifier If there is it is a simple Cap. to draw spikes.
http://www.bcae1.com/charging.htm (http://www.bcae1.com/charging.htm)
http://www.oregonmotorcycleparts.com/rectifiers.html (http://www.oregonmotorcycleparts.com/rectifiers.html)
Something in those links may help...
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I appreciate your prompt responses, Zombie. I checked the stator resistances, and they fell within the specified values, so I think I'm good there.
I guess I'll just have to wait until I get another rectifier. There is a local Kymco dealer so I might just go there...it'll probably cost me $25-30, but the sooner I get up and running again the better.
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I would also check all the grounds. Frame/engine/reg/batt/ If there ia a bad ground that would explain the trouble too. Maybe inside an insulator...
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I finally got another replacement from eBay. I was going to get one at the local dealer but they wanted over $80 for it!
Now another problem. The replacement regulator I got also shows infinite (open) for all resistances in the test. So, not sure what to do now. My meter is good (verified by measuring various resistors), and it is highly unlikely that I got two bad regulators from the guy on eBay.
I've read online about testing the regulators for the GY6 and it should be pretty straightforward...I'm just not getting the results that are expected.
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A resistance test is different from a diode leak test. You need a multi meter that has a specific diode tester. I don't know any other way to test them. Have you tried it on the scoot?
The only other issue is if the stator is Not emitting ac volts or the engine/chassis gnd is bad. On an ac range of 200 you should be at or near 110vac from the only two stator wires going to the rectifier.
You will have two ac wires in, one gnd, and one +12V out. Thats all their is.
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No luck with the new regulator; still acts the same at the original and the first replacement.
I did put my DMM on the diode check function and test for the forward voltage drop of the diode. I could only get one reading on a particular pair of pins, but the readings matched between the replacement regulator I got. For the original regulator, the drop was a little higher, but not by much.
I measured the charging coil and lighting coil resistances of the stator again. For the charging coil (white wire), I got around 1.2-1.4 ohms (spec is 0.2-1.2 ohms @ 20C). It is a colder than 20C here, so maybe that affects the reading. Not sure if 0.2 ohm above the spec is bad or not. Got about the same difference for the lighting coil (yellow wire).
I removed the regulator and checked the VAC from the charging coil and lighting coil. At idle, the lighting coil (yellow wire) had about 18 VAC on it, the charging coil (white wire) had about 22 VAC on it. At higher RPM, the VAC increased. Oh, and in the process I blew out my tail light because of the high voltage. >:(
With one of the replacement regulators installed, I checked the VAC on the yellow wire. It stayed steady at about 8 VAC at any RPM. Not sure if that tells us anything.
Any other tests or check you can think of doing, Zombie? I'm at a loss.
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I am NOT positive but I think the idle voltage should be approx. 100+vac, and the running voltage should be 180+vac. Have you tried dismounting the stator to check for proper grounds? Same for the engine to frame/battery ground?
At the risk of being an idiot... what was the initial problem?
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Ok I went back... You have crazy high voltage but no amperage... It's GOT to be a wire burnt Inside the insulator/terminal crimped onto an insulator, and not the wire or something similar. Maybe a bad ground as above. I'm sorry to see this is going on sooooo long. It HAS to be bad wiring.