KymcoForum.com
Scooters - 50cc => Agility 50 => Topic started by: tuko on July 11, 2012, 10:13:43 AM
-
That term I've read several times here and with my A50 I actually felt the scooter shifting while going up the rev band.
(http://www.tukojack.com/images/variator.jpg)
Would theses grooves have anything to do with that ?? LOL :D
Installed the new Naraku HS variator set yesterday with the new straight boss. While at it I began the experiment with various roller weights. As I wrote in an earlier thread, with the new 1000rpm contra spring I've had to go to heavier weights to get any performance from the A50.....Keep that in mind. ;)
So anyways I tried the 5.3g rollers that came with the kit and as I suspected the A50 shot right up to 25kph and stayed there. So I tried a new set of 8.5g rollers and from the start are they sluggish but once you get moving she goes well. Then I went back to the 8g rollers that I installed a few weeks ago and here she seems to perform the best.
I'm a big fan of the Dr. Pulley sliders and want to order a set but I'm a bit confused by several comments that I've been reading here and at other sites. Here the comment was made that you should go 1g higher once you found what suites you best and at another site they say to go .5g higher. ??? What is correct and what is recommended from past experience?
Another thing I did noticed yesterday was that the mixture screw on the side of the carb was not properly set. According to the manual it should be 2½ turns out, then from there you can fine adjust. On mine she was 1½ turns, by turning it to 2½ turns the A50 seems to runs better but I do think that only going one jet size up wasn't enough. The spark plug is very clean, no residue so I'm of the though that she's running a bit lean so a set of M5 jets were ordered yesterday so that I can experiment there to.
Anyways I'm having fun with the A50 just unsure at this time what should I buy, 8.0g or 8.5g Dr Pulley sliders. ??
Tuko.
-
Would theses grooves have anything to do with that ?? LOL Cheesy
Most definitely. Flat spots on the rollers will also do it.
A stiffer contra spring will require heavier rollers. It puts more tension on the belt thus making the variator shift slower, work harder, and the RPMs go higher. You should have gotten rid of that restricted boss drive a long time ago. That's part of the reason the face has groves. The belt should go all the way up the drive face.
Go 1 gram heavier for Dr. Pulleys
The idle mix screw doesn't have to be any specific number of turns. If it that was the case, it wouldn't be adjustable. It's different for everybody depending on climate, altitude, ect... The easiest way to set it is turn it 1/4 turn at a time until you get the highest RPMs. Then adjust the speed screw to the desired idle speed. You say it performs better now, that's a good thing.
-
Yes it does perform "better" now but she is still a bit sluggish when you give 'er full gas direct. I think this is due to a small jet.
I just bought this A50 a few weeks ago, so changing the boss was top of my priority list. She is getting better, just a few more tweaks and I'll have it as I want it.
Tuko.
-
Nice :)
Yeah you don't want to run it lean
-
Yes it does perform "better" now but she is still a bit sluggish when you give 'er full gas direct. I think this is due to a small jet.
I just bought this A50 a few weeks ago, so changing the boss was top of my priority list. She is getting better, just a few more tweaks and I'll have it as I want it.
Tuko.
Its sluggish because your using 8g rollers :o
Stock weight is only 6.5g so your way over that. All that does it shift your gearing quicker so youre getting into high gear before you should be and losing the sweet spot. I could not ride my A50 on anything heavier than 5.5g-6g, even that is too heavy for me, i use 5.1g rollers and im on a 1500rpm torque spring where youre only on a 1000rpm one!!! Lighten the rollers bigtime and mayne even go to a 1500 spring too.
Also did the boss come with the variator or did you buy it seperately? You may benefit from shortening the boss down a touch. Best thong to do is draw a line on the variator face with a magic marker, from the centre out to the edge, go for a ride at full speed and see how far up the variator the belt rides, as it rides up it will rub off the marker so if theres any marker left the the belt is not travelling to itsoter limit and youre losing top end speed.
I run 5.1g rollers, 1500 torque spring, race variator, shorter smooth boss = 45-48mph on flats, 30-40(ish) mph up hills, 50-52mph downhill.
-
I just learned about this extra length of the boss in the other thread. I had never heard of it before now. I have the multi var too. That's a good idea to use the magic marker to see how far up the belt is going... +1 :)
I have really been neglecting my CVT. I get great power from about 30 to 50 where I cruise. After 50 the power really drops off. Never really drops below 45 at WOT though. Unless it's a big hill. I guess I've been afraid to mess with it. I just know I can get at least another 5 mph without loosing acceleration.
-
Its sluggish because your using 8g rollers :o
Stock weight is only 6.5g so your way over that. All that does it shift your gearing quicker so youre getting into high gear before you should be and losing the sweet spot. I could not ride my A50 on anything heavier than 5.5g-6g, even that is too heavy for me, i use 5.1g rollers and im on a 1500rpm torque spring where youre only on a 1000rpm one!!! Lighten the rollers bigtime and mayne even go to a 1500 spring too.
Also did the boss come with the variator or did you buy it seperately? You may benefit from shortening the boss down a touch. Best thong to do is draw a line on the variator face with a magic marker, from the centre out to the edge, go for a ride at full speed and see how far up the variator the belt rides, as it rides up it will rub off the marker so if theres any marker left the the belt is not travelling to itsoter limit and youre losing top end speed.
I run 5.1g rollers, 1500 torque spring, race variator, shorter smooth boss = 45-48mph on flats, 30-40(ish) mph up hills, 50-52mph downhill.
Streido,
Like I wrote earlier and again now, the lighter the roller I went (both 5.0g and 5.3g) the A50 would indeed get up to speed fast but it hit the wall at 25kph! By going up in weight I gained my speed back. I do admit that changing the contra spring does confuse the matter at hand.
The boss that came with the Naraku kit is 38mm long. Is that too short? Something is telling me that possibly 36mm is the ideal length?
Tuko.
-
25kph!
Sounds like something isn't right. You checked the width of the belt?
-
I shaved my boss down to 36.8mm, 36mm may be too short :-\
I would def do the marker thing to see how its performing tho. 38mm is stock length, i ran mine like that for almost a yr till i fojnd out about shortening it down, got me an extra 3-5mph top speed. You may want to try a 1500 torque spring then?
Its only been in the last yr or so that folk have been saying 5.5g rollers seem too light in their newer A50's, all others like pre-2010/2011 all work well on 5.5's ??? I dont get it?? Your Agility left the factory with 6.5g rollers so you can safely assume they WILL work so maybe buy them or 6g's, those 8.5g ones just seem way too heavy to me unless you had a BBK installed. I would never be able to get up to top speed on rollers that heavy. Is it a stock belt your on?
-
As for the belt, seeing how the rest of the A50 has been I'll have to assume that it's never been changed.
I do have a 1500rpm contra spring maybe this weekend I'll give it a try. Plus I'll shave a mm from the boss.
Tuko.
-
As for the belt, seeing how the rest of the A50 has been I'll have to assume that it's never been changed.
I do have a 1500rpm contra spring maybe this weekend I'll give it a try. Plus I'll shave a mm from the boss.
Tuko.
Do the spring 1st only and see how that is, if you shave the boss then that throws in a whole other set of variables. I would say its better to get the cvt set-up as best you can 1st with a stock boss then if you want to tune more do the boss. You may find its a lot closer to what you want with just the spring. Once you cut the boss that it cut so if it dont work well for you you need to buy a new boss.i always do 1 thing at a time cos if you mess with more than that you have no idea which thing isnt working out.
-
always do 1 thing at a time cos if you mess with more than that you have no idea which thing isnt working out
Very true and often underestimated or temporarily forgotten !! We can not repeat this often enough !
I've learnt in a lot of hard ways that I should stick to this principle, even when I'm sure it won't be neccesary this time haha... ;D
-
I've learnt in a lot of hard ways that I should stick to this principle, even when I'm sure it won't be neccesary this time haha...
We all have, or will, at some point experienced this :D
I dont even fully bolt on my cvt cover now till i had a few miles testing 1st, those bolts are a pain to undo again if a mod doesnt work well so i use 4 bolts, test it and if its good i put the rest back in.
-
Yep! :)
It's so tempting when you get a box of parts in the mail to just throw everything on at one time. Fight the temptation ;)
-
Very true and often underestimated or temporarily forgotten !! We can not repeat this often enough !
I've learnt in a lot of hard ways that I should stick to this principle, even when I'm sure it won't be neccesary this time haha... ;D
Thanks for the advice guys, I will hold off for now. ;D
In the mean time I've ordered a new drive belt that I should have next week. I have no idea when the previous owner changed it, if they did at all. ???
Tuko.
-
In the mean time I've ordered a new drive belt that I should have next week.
Be sure to check it,different manufacturers use different codes to measure/list them. Ive bought 729mm long belts that were only 716mm and 720mm long when i measured it. the best thing is to order OEM stock Bando belts to be sure they are correct,or do the magic marker thing too.
-
Be sure to check it,different manufacturers use different codes to measure/list them. Ive bought 729mm long belts that were only 716mm and 720mm long when i measured it. the best thing is to order OEM stock Bando belts to be sure they are correct,or do the magic marker thing too.
Oi,
Quality parts I see. Well last night I ordered the Naraku V/S belt for the A50, which they claim is made by Bando. Time will tell for sure. When I have the variator apart again, which will be soon I will do the magic marker trick. With that said, I can comment that I could see already that the belt is travelling further up the variator face after removing the restrictive boss.
Tuko.
-
You can just about draw the marker line with the variator and belt still all in place.
Naraku belts seem ok length wise normally, the ones i tried were spot on.
-
Thanks to the rain, the Land Rover is drier so the A50 is parked. >:(
I did see though, when I was testing the various roller weights that the markings on the outer drive plate indicated that the belt was climbing higher on the disc. I would say stopping about an cm from the top.
Yes, I have been pleased with Naraku stuff in the past so I'll see how they do with the A50.
Tuko.
-
If its stopping a cm from the top then thats a good few mph top end your losing. Mine goes to the top edge of my variator, if i draw a marker on it then go for a ride it takes it all pretty much off clean, at most i have 1mm-0.5mm of marker left on the very outside edge.
-
I'll just add something to the marker thing:
Draw a line on the rear pulley aswell, as the combination of lines on the front pulley (variator) and the back pulley will let you read the CVT much better. :)
Line on front pulley not fully gone + line on rear pulley gone = too short belt.
Line on front pulley fully gone + line on rear pulley not gone = too long belt
Line on front pulley not fully gone + line on rear pulley not gone = wrong roller weight or worn down rollers. :)
Of course, the lines should be read farest away from the shaft on the front pulley and closest to the shaft on the rear pulley to read max gearing. ;)
-
Nice tip Baddi!
-
..yeah, been doing that...
;)
-
Thanks for the suggestions/tips guys.
I finally got a few hours in the garage yesterday and I have plenty to report. ;)
I replaced the 1000rpm contra spring with a 1500rpm spring and installed the 5.3g rollers in the variator. Before test driving the A50 I marked the variator face with a black marker (sorry I for got the mark the clutch pates). Took it for a test drive and as I suspected she quickly shot up to approx. 25kph and stayed there. When I removed the variator I can see that the drive belt stopped approx a cm from the end of the variator.
So from here I installed the 8g rollers and took it out again. This time she went up to it's new top speed of approx. 70kph. With the variator removed again, I can clearly see that the drive belt has moved further out to the end of the variator face with approx 1mm of marker remaining.
Changing to 8.5g roller and out again, this time about the same as with the 8.0g weights with the top speed being approx the same. With the variator removed I can barely see any ink left on the variator face edge.
I even changed the rollers to 9.0g weights and test drove that, this was where performance fell off, throttle response and pick up was sluggish..... I put the weights back in the case and gave up on them direct. ;)
The above tests were with the 1500rpm contra spring, so I conducted it all again with the 1000rpm contra spring and the original spring. For me the 1000rpm contra spring felt the best but I do question the originality of the "original" contra spring. It's a black spring with blue paint down one side. The Naraku contra springs that I have, the 1000rpm spring is blue and the 1500rpm spring is yellow. So I'm wondering if the original contra spring was replaced at any time to a slightly stiffer one or is that the original colors for them?
I did check the drive belt and it's an Kymco original that has plenty of wear on it which measured 17mm across the top. Before work tonight the new Naraku drive belt came in the post, so she'll be installed tomorrow.
What really makes me scratch my head in disbelief is that I have to go to heavier weights to get any solid performance where others here on this forum go with lighter weights. ??? I've not owned the A50 for a month yet and have no idea what the previous owner has done but I'm working in the direction that I want.
I also changed the main jet to an 88 yesterday but I must admit I've not really noticed a huge difference from the 82 that I installed 2 weeks ago. And even that, the 82 didn't really make any seat of your pants difference either from the 80 that it replaced. The old chinese scooter I had, I used a 92 main jet in that and that really worked well. So I'm up in the air if I should go a bit larger with the jet or go down smaller?
In the mean time, lets see what difference the new drive belt will make.
Tuko
-
For me it makes perfect sense with the roller weight, as the rollers force to compress the contra spring are weight x rpm (accually area x (mass x accelleration)), so as the stiffer spring requires more force to be compressed, the engine would either go higher in rpm, or you would have to install heavier rollers to keep the rpm at the same as before during accelleration. :)
-
For me it makes perfect sense with the roller weight, as the rollers force to compress the contra spring are weight x rpm (accually area x (mass x accelleration)), so as the stiffer spring requires more force to be compressed, the engine would either go higher in rpm, or you would have to install heavier rollers to keep the rpm at the same as before during accelleration. :)
Thats the whole point in fitting a stiffer spring, to shift the gearing and raise the rpms. Same with the lighter rollers, it raises the rpm too, its finding that balance of spring stiffness to roller weight that keeps you in the rpm "powerband". No point fittinv a stiff apring and then going heavier on the rollers as then the rpms wont rise and ypu wont get any gain, your as well leaving the stock in if you do that.
These 4 stroke engines only really perform well under high rpm, under 6000-6500rpm they tend to die off in power and run like a pensioners mobility scooter. With you not being used to the noises coming off it at different rpms you may feel it is revving too high so might want to buy a cheap rev counter/tach? I got one off ebay for £10 ages ago and its been way useful for tuning and general info on the running rpms at different speeds. Lets you better know when you reach the rpm limit of 9000rpm so you can tune to the max.
-
Ja, trying to find that right combination of springs and rollers is no easy task! :o
I'm sure I'll be at all summer til I get it just right as I don't feel that I'm really in the right rev band yet.
Tuko.
-
Ja, trying to find that right combination of springs and rollers is no easy task! :o
I'm sure I'll be at all summer til I get it just right as I don't feel that I'm really in the right rev band yet.
Tuko.
Well its only taken me 12-14 months to get mine to perform the way i want it to. Its a looooooong process but worth it in the end. If youever ride a stock A50 after you have yours tuned up you will soon see how far you have come and how much better it is compared to stock.
-
Thats the whole point in fitting a stiffer spring, to shift the gearing and raise the rpms. Same with the lighter rollers, it raises the rpm too, its finding that balance of spring stiffness to roller weight that keeps you in the rpm "powerband". No point fittinv a stiff apring and then going heavier on the rollers as then the rpms wont rise and ypu wont get any gain, your as well leaving the stock in if you do that.
These 4 stroke engines only really perform well under high rpm, under 6000-6500rpm they tend to die off in power and run like a pensioners mobility scooter. With you not being used to the noises coming off it at different rpms you may feel it is revving too high so might want to buy a cheap rev counter/tach? I got one off ebay for £10 ages ago and its been way useful for tuning and general info on the running rpms at different speeds. Lets you better know when you reach the rpm limit of 9000rpm so you can tune to the max.
The effectband is so narrow on these 4-stroke 50cc scooters, that even 5-800 under the effectband would be catastrofic. :p
But also a couple of hundred over would be, as it looses torque here too. My experience is that 6,25g rollers will keep you on 7200 rpm with the standart spring, so when you fit a tighter spring and have even lighter rollers than that, it blows my mind. ;D
-
Same here when you guys are running 7g+ rollers. I tried 7.5g rollers about a yr ago to see how they were and i lasted about 5mins before i hated everything about them, i just had no power, no revs, no torque, it died on hill and i couldnt get up to top speed unless i had an airstrip or something.
No way my revs were anywhere near 7200 on a flat normal road, usually i ended up down at 5000-6000 at most. On my 5.1g rollers, 1600 torque spring my tach normally reads between 7000-8400 once im up to speed, rises to 9000 down hills.
Anything over 5.5g kills my A50 on ANY torque spring stiffness, believe me, i tried lots of different combinations in the past and none worked as well for me as i have now. Maybe Scandinavia where you live is totally flat so your set up works there? Def doesnt wotk over hete tho, thats for sure.
Still say a tach is a must for tuning, takes away the guess work of what rpm the engine is running at.
-
My observation is that the sound of a higher revving engine makes it seem faster to a lot of inexperienced people - and also that the variator seems to work better to them because the revlimiter or natural rpm limit of the engine makes it sound very constant and smooth...
It takes some time to develop enough feel for these engines to be able to judge your setup just by driving.
Not so long ago I had to find some real benchmarks to measure and compare acceleration - like the speed I achieved at the end of a certain short road uphill and under certain wind conditions - just to be able to reliably compare the effect of two sets of weights that were only half a gram apart, without being influenced by sound or expectations...
-
Same here when you guys are running 7g+ rollers. I tried 7.5g rollers about a yr ago to see how they were and i lasted about 5mins before i hated everything about them, i just had no power, no revs, no torque, it died on hill and i couldnt get up to top speed unless i had an airstrip or something.
No way my revs were anywhere near 7200 on a flat normal road, usually i ended up down at 5000-6000 at most. On my 5.1g rollers, 1600 torque spring my tach normally reads between 7000-8400 once im up to speed, rises to 9000 down hills.
Anything over 5.5g kills my A50 on ANY torque spring stiffness, believe me, i tried lots of different combinations in the past and none worked as well for me as i have now. Maybe Scandinavia where you live is totally flat so your set up works there? Def doesnt wotk over hete tho, thats for sure.
Still say a tach is a must for tuning, takes away the guess work of what rpm the engine is running at.
And 9000 is where the rev limiter are after the CDI is cut, so at what speed do you hit the rev limiter? :D
Today i checked my rollers, as they feel worn down, and changed one, which was worn to the metal. So much for driving mixed 6,5 and 6g rollers, the heavier get worn down faster.
I changed the worn down roller with one which is only medium worn, as i have already ordered some dr.pulley from scooter-assassin, and i hit the rev limiter at 69 km/h gps after 100-200 meters driving on a flat road. :)
Before i changed the worn roller, i were hitting it at 61 km/h, so even though the rollers still need replacement, it is not as bad as before. ;)
I have observed the same as mono, and ealier i were timing the time it took for me to hit 30, 50 and 60 on the speedometer to get the right roller weight, but the speedometer on this scooter is broken, so since im using GPS on my phone to see speed, i cant also use the phone to time it. But this is all solved, when i get the money for a Stage 6 speedometer (http://www.adrenalin-pedstop.co.uk/p-Digital_speedometer_Stage6_orange_line_multifunctional-3833.aspx) which can also time the time it takes to achieve a certain speed. :)
-
I hit the rev limit 48-50mph downhill, dont usually hit the 9000 on flats (traffic, junctions and lights get in the way). Flats i normally get around 46-48mph and at that its around 800-8850 rpm on my tach but this varies depending on if the road is perfectly flat or has slight ups and downs.
Like Mono said you need a test route to use for all comparisons. I use the same 4-5 mile route to do my test runs on always, ot has a steep hill up, flats, and a nice downhill to finish. The only way to see what changes your tuning/new part has is to ride the route you know and compare your know speeds/accelerations, otherwise its all guesswork. I know i can get up the steep hill at 30-31mph, flats 46-48, downhill 50-52mph, if o do a swap or tune then ride my route i can easily see if its worse, better or the same. I also know i can pull away from certain junctions and by a known point i should be hitting 30/40/45mph, i use things like lampposts, side roads or road signs as reference points for this.
Mixing rollers is only for tuning to find the weight you like, once you get your ideal weight then you should always swap out for a full set of the correct weight you need. Otherwise you get what you just found, that the heavy ones wear faster.
-
My speeds above are based on my scoots speedo. I did a compare on my phone gps and found when i did exactly 50mph on my speedo the gps was saying 46mph.
-
My speeds above are based on my scoots speedo. I did a compare on my phone gps and found when i did exactly 50mph on my speedo the gps was saying 46mph.
That difference sounds about the same as I'm getting, my Speedo is showing 6»7 kph higher than the actual speed.
-
My speeds above are based on my scoots speedo. I did a compare on my phone gps and found when i did exactly 50mph on my speedo the gps was saying 46mph.
GPS on phone are usually not good, and a couple of programs i tried downloading for my friend on his iphone had a terrible lag, which makes me unsure if it can be trusted. I use "Ulysse Speedometer" on my smartphone and it usually have 6-12 satelites connected and i have learned that it is quite precise. It usually shows the same as or a little less than the road signs do, but that depends on when the road sign was calibrated. :)
All speedometers are 10%-15% off, with the 15% beign when you get closer to the highest number. This is because of the design of it and that it is illegal almost anyware to have an unfuntional speedometer, and that it cant show lower than what you drive but it can show up to 20% higher than what you drive before it is considered unfunctional. At least thats the upper point here in Denmark. :D
-
Ulysse Speedometer
Yup, same one i used/use, seems the best out there so far. Wont ever own an iphoney, not interested in overpriced Apple crap :D
This was town riding so mostly stop-start apart from a couple of open roads to hit 50mph.
(http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa351/streido/SC20120613-163311.png)
-
Yup, same one i used/use, seems the best out there so far. Wont ever own an iphoney, not interested in overpriced Apple crap :D
This was town riding so mostly stop-start apart from a couple of open roads to hit 50mph.
(http://i1193.photobucket.com/albums/aa351/streido/SC20120613-163311.png)
I take it, that you are measuring in mph there aswell. ;D
-
And only 19% battery charge left..... Living on the edge yeah ! 8)
-
take it, that you are measuring in mph there aswell.
Is there any other scale? :D
All our road signs are in mph here, as are all car speedo's and most bike speedo's too, it what we use. We wont have none of that new fangled Kilometre sh**, thats the work of the devil. :)
And only 19% battery charge left..... Living on the edge yeah ! 8)
Oh yeah 8)
Was on my way home from work, think this was the remains of my battery power after charging and using up 2-3 batteries worth while "working" hard at my bench all day.
-
iPhone just came out with an app that actually transports me, so I no longer even need a scooter or car... You're phone can't do that hahaha :P
-
They stole that technology from the starship enterprise ;D
-
iPhone just came out with an app that actually transports me, so I no longer even need a scooter or car... You're phone can't do that hahaha :P
Im just typing your number in now.........see you in a second :)