KymcoForum.com
General => Technical | How To => Topic started by: Aceforever on October 31, 2012, 05:02:54 AM
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Hey yall,
Thought I'll ask anyone who uses the expensive petrol for their scooter, and would that keep the bike a lot more healthier in the long run?
I've been using the Premium petrol since this advice was good for the car and decided to do it for my scoot. So I wanted to know if the same principle applies?
Thanks in advance
CHEERS :)
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Run what the manufacturer recommends. If they say run regular, run regular. Premium will not make it run any better. That being said, not sure about your scoot but pretty sure most recommend higher grade.
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True that. Thanks
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Don't throw out your money and save it. The premium petrol is for high compression engines.
More octanes don't means more power in your engine if it hasn't adapted for more antidetonation.
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For a scooter premium fuel is just throwing your money away.
Even if it calls for it, when you pump from a one hose pump
you get almost a gallon of whatever grade the last guy used.
How much gas does your scooter take?
Most use 87 just fine. The higher octanes are for high compression
motors. It stops them from preigniting. It actually is harder to burn.
Most modern engines even with high compression run just fine on
87 octane. The design of the "squish" area makes them harder to
detonate.
I would use non ethanol fuel if you can get it. These little motors
don't like it. My Yager manual says do not use it but I can only
get the 10% around here (Thanks FEDS!).
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Also folks in other earlier threads have pointed out - the calculation of octane ratings differ from country to county.
As a result it's possible that regular unleaded 87 here in the states would equal the top notch gas in Tiawan.
Read the notes closely to make sure the octane units of measure are calculated the same way.
I've tried regular and premium and have not noticed any difference - so I just go with the cheap stuff.
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Interesting information. In checking earlier posts of this forum and some other forums, the preponderance of advice has been to use the octane recommended. My manual specifies 93 octane, so I have been using that. My typical fill-up is just over 2 gallons, so switching to 87 octane would save me about 76 cents per fill-up.
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Well most bikes have a little sticker somewhere telling you what to use.
Mine says 87 via R+M/2 method so I'm good with the low test!
There was some confusion in that the grade is sometimes specified
in the R method so appears higher. Generally speaking higher won't hurt
it but lower might.
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Everyone's right here... just go for the manufacturer's recommendation. But another consideration is petrol quality... a more well known brand would usually have better quality and cleaner stuff than a cheaper never heard brand regardless of octane rating.
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Well gotta weigh in on this one, here is my spin on it,Premium fuel has no Ethanol and since scooters and small cc machines carry only small amount of fuel....I say go for the good stuff, here is why,I see lots of problems caused by Ethanol fuels, they are corrosive and go stale very quickly resulting in lots of "no starts" after sitting for a short period of time and damaged carb parts where fuel has been allowed to sit for several months. The small additional costs of the better quality fuel far out weigh the costs of service/repairs incurred with its use.
Enjoy the Ride !
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". . . Premium fuel has no Ethanol . . . "
I didn't know that !
If that's the case then I'll switch to premium too.
Kevin
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I don't know about Canada where Kymcoholic is from, but all grades in the US have up to 10% ethanol added. There may be a few exceptions here and there and there are the stations that sell pure gas only. But there are many places in the US where 10% ethanol is all there is available.
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I don't know about Canada where Kymcoholic is from, but all grades in the US have up to 10% ethanol added. There may be a few exceptions here and there and there are the stations that sell pure gas only. But there are many places in the US where 10% ethanol is all there is available.
Yep!
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One manufacturer had no ethanol in their premium fuel (I believe it was
Shell) but most around here have it so it doesn't guarantee ethanol free.
The Feds are pushing for 15% with some weird 4 gallon fill rule so many
stations will start selling ethanol free but for $0.40 more than regular.
What a scam, ethanol was $1 per gallon and they got to charge $3.50
now they are taking it out and charging still more!
That's besides the fact that you use more fuel to go the same distance so
the pollution benefits are somewhat nebulous...
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http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=23957 (http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=23957)
The "4 gallon minimum" is a non-issue, unless you choose to fill from a pump that dispenses multiple blends of EtOH. Then, the EPA requires the service station to dispense a minimum of 4 gals of E10 to dilute any E15 in the hose. TO PROTECT THE VEHICLE OWNER. Otherwise, the EPA would have to find a way to outlaw multi-blend pumps, which would ignite a firestorm in the gas station business community. If your local station only has blending pumps, then take your less than 4 gallon business elsewhere. The use of blending pumps is a service station decision.
The EPA is NOT "pushing" E15. Indeed, the opposite has been the case, but there is insufficient science to prevent the petroleum industry from selling it. Science, not economics, is all the EPA can use. Thus, the granting of a "Limited Waiver" that allows (in no way requires) the sale of E15 for use in 2001 and later passenger cars and multi-fuel vehicles ONLY.
The EPA is not requiring the use of E15 in any vehicles, nor has it expressed an interest in such a policy. It is state and local governments that might be doing so. The petroleum and EtOH business interests are pushing E15 and want to be able to use blending pumps to save money. The EPA's involvement in the pumps is to mandate "mitigation" to protect the public from unwanted or improper delivery of E15. The EPA was not totally able to thwart bug business' desire to foist E15 upon us, but they are doing their best to protect us from the limited use E15 being dispensed to us against our will and best interest.
Yes, a Bill was entered in Congress to require the EPA to do exactly what it was already required to do and has been doing in evaluating the technical issues pertaining to E15. Pure political theater.
Fortunately (I suspect) this is not going to be as simple a mandate as unleaded gasoline or even E10. Far too much risk of damage to engines, and the additional safety aspect of fuel lines being much more profoundly effected by E15 than E10. Right now it's a sort of "Clash of Titans", with the EtOH producers tossing millions to promote their product, and engine manufacturers pushing back. But, since there is not the equivalent of a "lead substitute" to get the desired octane or protect valves, E15 has much greater technological hurdles to cross.
One clear signal of the hurdles is a bill known as "Domestic Fuels Act of 2012 (HR 4345)" entered by Rep. John Shimkus (R-Ill) to protect retailers, engine manufacturers, and fuel producers from E15 related lawsuits. If there is enough risk of litigation to prompt such a bill............... The bill is dormant in committee, BTW.
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Well gotta weigh in on this one, here is my spin on it,Premium fuel has no Ethanol and since scooters and small cc machines carry only small amount of fuel....I say go for the good stuff, here is why,I see lots of problems caused by Ethanol fuels, they are corrosive and go stale very quickly resulting in lots of "no starts" after sitting for a short period of time and damaged carb parts where fuel has been allowed to sit for several months. The small additional costs of the better quality fuel far out weigh the costs of service/repairs incurred with its use.
Enjoy the Ride !
From what country are you from? Our gasoline here all have 10% ethanol... it's the law...
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Gas stations that sell non ethanol gas can be found at the puregas.org website . The stations are listed by state and then city . Good luck .
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+1 on the non-ethanol stuff... Ethanol is technically (still not politically) acceptable for modern car engines with a self learning engine management system and an ethanol resistant fuel system - not for simple carburetted scooters...
I'm not the only one who had (because of the slowly increasing percentage of ethanol in our fuel) issues with the mixture being lean because of the different oxygen needs for ethanol, and with plug chops not telling anything useful anymore when trying to compensate for this...
After switching to ethanol-free gasoline these issues vanished as expected....
In the Netherlands, at least the "Shell V-Power E95" brand is currently ethanol free (I test this regularly) and it's not that much more expensive compared to the regular ethanol contaminated crap...
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Mono,
How do you test to see if the gas is ethanol free ?
KZ
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Here is a semi-related question for the group . . . at the cycle shop they sell an additive that is supposed to counter act the effects of Ethonol.
Do any of those products work ?
KZ
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Here is a semi-related question for the group . . . at the cycle shop they sell an additive that is supposed to counter act the effects of Ethonol.
Do any of those products work ?
KZ
Gas pumps will have a sticker saying if they contain ethanol. Here they say up to 10% ethanol added.
Star Tron is good stuff. I get it at the scooter shop. The guys there use it. Also boat owners use it. One bottle will last a long time for scooter use. It says it will keep the fuel stable for up to two years.
http://mystarbrite.com/startron/ (http://mystarbrite.com/startron/)
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Mono,
How do you test to see if the gas is ethanol free ?
Put some water in a small glass jar, about 15% of its total volume. Precisely mark the level of the water on the outside of the jar. Fill the rest of the jar with gasoline, put the lid on, shake it to mix the water and gasoline, and put it down to rest. After a while the gasoline and water will be separated again. If there was any ethanol in the gasoline, most of it will have migrated to the water - so if the water level remained exactly the same, the gasoline is ethanol-free...
Here is a semi-related question for the group . . . at the cycle shop they sell an additive that is supposed to counter act the effects of Ethonol.
Do any of those products work ?
Ethanol has more than one side effect, and I can only imagine one of those (corrosion) to be countered by a small amount of some chemical compound... They cannot change the fact that ethanol contains an oxygen atom in every molecule while gasoline does not, for example, or that ethanol is a solvent which will penetrate some plastics and rubber...
I'm pretty sure that it won't prevent a carburetted engine from running lean, or plug chops from being way off, or prevent seals from swelling, or prevent composite fuel tanks from slowly solving, etc...
As long as they won't explain exactly what's in this stuff and why it should work, I consider this stuff to be a regular case of snake oil ;D
Gas pumps will have a sticker saying if they contain ethanol. Here they say up to 10% ethanol added.
Over here they don't...
(And since this industry is about making money, ethanol is heavily subsidized, and petrol companies don't have a track record for reliability, I wouldn't trust a sticker anyway...)
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The sticker on the pumps is the law here.
http://ag.utah.gov/divisions/regulatory/documents/E10%20report%20051910.pdf (http://ag.utah.gov/divisions/regulatory/documents/E10%20report%20051910.pdf)
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From what country are you from? Our gasoline here all have 10% ethanol... it's the law...
Hello...I am located in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada.
This link should help most people interested in this topic, its a list of Ethanol free stations both sides of the border as well as some interesting info.....for example no Ethanol in Alaska...hummm....most likely due to the cold start issues related to ethanol
http://pure-gas.org/ (http://pure-gas.org/)
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My Yager says not to use ethanol fuel, but the only place I can get it is 50 miles north at a
marina. Startron is supposed to fix the ethanol so I use it but not sure what it does exactly.
All of my local pumps have a single nozzle for gas so can't get away from the 4 gallon rule.
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I think we all should fill 5 gallon gas cans to 4 then add water then siphon the pure gas into our
scooters and dump the water/ethanol on the ground at the station!
Don't spill the ethanol !! After separating it this way, it's diluted with water and some tasty gasoline residues, effectively making it a cheap wodka ;D
Joking aside, I've been thinking about decontaminating gasoline this way... The problem is that the only useful effect of ethanol is that it improves octane rating.... Which means that the gasoline it's mixed with probably has a lower octane rating than the sticker on the pump says... So, when you remove the ethanol from the mix....
Perhaps it's possible to install a knock sensor from a car, to be warned as soon as the cleaned gasoline causes detonation, and keep a small bottle of octane booster under the seat, just in case...
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I found this online;
"Ethanol has a higher octane rating than gasoline, about 116.
When you 10% ethanol into 87 octane gas you get about 90 octane as a result."
So our 87 becomes 84 when we take the ethanol out? Hmm better start with 91!
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Ethanol is used as an octane booster and as a oxygenate to help the mixture burn more completely for reduced emissions. Previously, greater amounts of MTBE was used as octane booster and oxygenate, but MTBE leaks from storage tanks can be toxic to the environment (and way before that, we used tetra-ethyl lead in our fuel for octane boost). The base fuel stocks now come in lower octane ratings than before, relying on ethanol to raise the octane rating to the values we need in regular grade and up. Ethanol can be a clever and useful substitute. I personally don't like ethanol coming from corn here in North America, but that's a different discussion altogether. Small engines and automobiles engines for a few decades now have been designed to run just fine on the small amounts of ethanol in today's gas. The hoses are resistant to the little amount of ethanol. Small amounts of ethanol won't corrode aluminum like in our throttle bodies and carburetors and engines. Large amounts of ethanol will. Thus, don't put E85 in our bikes and don't go higher than E10.
Sometimes, higher octane fuels will contain less ethanol or even no ethanol. The octane rating can be raised with other chemicals, like MTBE and aromatics. As I understand it, sometimes these aromatics don't burn quite as cleanly, so extra detergent is added in premium fuels compared to regular grade fuel. That's why I don't see buying premium for extra detergent to be worthwhile. If you need extra cleaning, get a bottle of Techron concentrate or Gumout Regane.
If you ride the bike regularly, the gasoline shouldn't degrade and lose octane rating enough to matter. I recommend stabilizing fuel in scooters and motorcycles if they're going into storage for a few months or more. Ethanol-free or ethanol-reduced fuel might be worthwhile too.
As for fuel stabilizers, a product like Startron or Stabil basically envelops the ethanol molecules and prevents them from reacting with water. It's very useful in marine engines because they're exposed to lots of water! A fuel stabilizer also acts as a sacrificial substance to stop harmful reactive compounds like oxygen from oxidizing and degrading the gasoline into varnish. Keep in mind that fuel stabilizer should be added to fresh gas; it won't make stale gas any fresher.
I personally run regular grade fuel with ethanol in my bikes and cars unless they specify premium fuel for performance.
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Oopps...I forgot to reply back to say thank you all for this useful information. I am very appreciated for this.
I went with my instinct and stuck with premium since it only cost $6-8AUD to fill up ;)
Thanks again
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old geezer I`m impressed. that is the clearest and most informative response post that I have seen on this forum.