KymcoForum.com
General => Roadcraft => Topic started by: ScooterWolf on November 09, 2012, 06:24:18 PM
-
Winter is approaching in the Northern Hemisphere. For those who enjoy riding all year round, or late into the season, what are some of your tactics?
With the colder riding months I often weigh the choice between comfort and safety. My current armored riding jacket is too light for cold weather, forcing me to switch to a heavy leather jacket that protects me against the wind and cold, but without the protection of armor on my spine, shoulders and elbows. I switch thiner riding gloves for heavier winter, giving me less then a confident/secure grip on the bars.
However, I've notices that discomfort compromises my safety. In the past when wearing thinner gloves and my riding jacket in the winter I quickly became fatigued by the cold, slowing my reaction time and awareness on the road. The answer is to buy an armored riding jacket for the winter months, but it's an added expense I'm not ready to purchase.
I'd like to hear others opinions on this subject.
- Wolf
-
Wolfman, you did it, you got your forum. I use my Joe Rocket armored jacket in the winter or on rides with a group since those rides are usually longer. I haven't used the liner yet but I could have used it yesterday. I also switched to the battery powered gloves. They do make gripping more difficult but not so difficult that I can't get to the brakes quickly. In this cold weather I am more alert at intersections, I am conscious of the possibility of ice in the little gullies that are in most intersections. I go thru them very straight and slowly.
Richard L.
-
Here's what I've discovered: Thin layers of nice, fleecy, warm stuff next to the skin, and a breathable, wind- and waterproof outer shell, such as Horny Toadz (http://www.froggtoggs.com/store/outerwear-rainwear/collection/toadz/horny-toadz-jacket-10.html). I just got mine (http://scootercalledwanda.blogspot.com/2012/11/horny-toadz.html), and have thus far ridden in 28F for an hour at 0-60mph, quite comfortably, with just a couple of fleece tops under the shell, and jeans under the pants.
Cutting the wind is the secret. Once you have that licked on the outermost layer, the inner layers of heat-trapping fleece or sweatshirt(s) will do their job amazingly well, and not restrict your movement, at all.
.
-
JP'
What gloves are you wearing ?
Do you have heated grips ?
KZ
-
This thing looks like a bit much - but hey if you're freezing, who cares ?
Fleece Balaclava with Spandex Crown
http://www.amazon.com/ZANheadgear-Fleece-Balaclava-Spandex-Crown/dp/B0012TYYKA/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_nC?ie=UTF8&colid=2RWJ5J5UFRWPV&coliid=I1K7ANFHNM21GH (http://www.amazon.com/ZANheadgear-Fleece-Balaclava-Spandex-Crown/dp/B0012TYYKA/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_nC?ie=UTF8&colid=2RWJ5J5UFRWPV&coliid=I1K7ANFHNM21GH)
-
JP'
What gloves are you wearing ?
Do you have heated grips ?
No heated grips. I have a light pair of Bilt riding gloves, and will sometimes layer those with something like this (http://www.superiorglove.com/Dexterity_Nylon_Latex_coated_P729.html). Even with gloves, layering is better. I have an expensive pair of Columbia ski gloves that are worthless, as the liner is not connected to the shell at all, and the liners get so wadded up that it's impossible to put the damned thangs on. Even at their best, when new, they only delayed the onset of total finger numbness.
When it gets really cold, I do the layered glove on the right hand, and the ski mitten on the left. The left hand never gets uncomfortably cold in Nashville weather, at least.
.
-
To protect from cold wind, I prefer rain suits. I have overcoats from boot to gloves. Of course the sensitiveness is adversely affected with multiple layers, especially for the hands.
To dress appropiate is imho the easier parts of struggle against winter.
But without moving, just sitting, you will get cold, sooner or later. Or you have professional arctic equipment (i.e. with heat exchange water from the engine).
And what do you do against darkness and (imho most difficult) slippery roads?
-
Thanks for posting everyone, and I'm glad to see a building interest here. Also, thanks for all the links on winter riding gear. I'll begin gathering and post them as a reference collection into a separate thread for people to access and add to.
Layering is definitely the key, especially in the exposed areas of the wrist, neck and chin. I recently got a pair of balaclavas for my birthday last month -- great game changer. My morning rides are far better than last season. I looked at a pair of heated gloves, but I'm not there yet. My longest commute is around 20-30 minutes in the morning. So far so good with my hands staying warm with no-tech winter gloves.
I've found hand warmers work, but if placed under the gloves they do little to keep the fingers warm which are the first to go numb on cold and windy days.
Richard, great tips on the intersections. I take the same approach any day after a rain or snow fall. Debris tends to spill out into intersections, as well as run off. If water melts or accumulates during day and freezes at night it's potential hazard the following
morning. This is especially true of you're riding on an unfamiliar road.
On four lane roads -- two going one way and two going the opposite -- if I'm traveling through a wooded area I tend to pick the left lane. Though this exposes me to on coming traffic in the opposing lane (especially if they cross the yellow line on a curve) I feel less subjected to any debris, water or ice that may have spilled onto the road on the right lane. I may wait a day or two if the weather warms before switching back to the right lane to ride in
Anyone have any experience with this? Such a tactic may vary depending on the CC of your bike and it's ability to ride with the flow of traffic ( is it fast enough to ride in the passing lane).
-Wolf
-
No personal experience, but imho that's a good idea.
In Europe we can't choose the lane, we have to stay right (GB: left) if not passing other vehicles.
-
Does that apply to motorcycles, or just scooters? Ts -- you're welcomed to come to the States -- North America in general, and ride on the wild side.
For European riders, if you are regulated to the right lane is the practice of dividing the lane into three parts -- left, right and middle -- observed? If so, are there any tactics for dealing with bad weather and unusual road conditions?
-Wolf
-
Does that apply to motorcycles, or just scooters?
Any vehicle.
For European riders, if you are regulated to the right lane is the practice of dividing the lane into three parts -- left, right and middle -- observed?
3 lanes are quite rare in Germany. In that case the middle lane is assigned alternating to the right or left side - but only for passing. Never may both sides use the middle lane simultaneously.
-
I enjoy winter riding, as long as it is above freezing...we have way too much black ice with the moisture in the air here. I wear a 3 season motorcycle jacket with liner, heavy riding gloves with thinsulate lining and wind pants. These are literally used by sailors to keep moisture and wind out. They work fantastic and fit well over my slacks or dress pants for work. My boots are insulated as well. I have not yet had to resort to a balacava, but being a year older, may give in this year. My ride to work and back is about 20 minutes each way and this has worked well for me so far. I still am able to move around and the gloves have patches on the palms and fingers to help grip the handles. They aren't as flexible as my regular riding gloves, but are still breaking in. My biggest worry is sand and wet leaves on the roads. This makes even putting my feet down at stops hazardous.
-
..i ride year round, in central North Carolina..day, night, rain, shine, sleet and even one 15 mile trip in a cpl inches of road snow (no more of that, please)..
..the keys to riding in cold (28f)?? temps are...
1..LAYERS of close-fitting thermals or cotton, the idea being to retain body heat...layers do that..
2..SHELL the layers in a fashion that inhibits air passages to your skin...even small ones, like around the waist or wrists..
3..PROTECT the neck...in whatever fashion works for you..gotta be able to move, but still keep the wind off your throat..'specially on commutes of 10+ miles..
-
..windproof, waterproof gloves are a MUST!!!!
-
..full-faced helmet and a good balaclava....
..in colder temps, i wear a thin toboggan so it levels out just below my eyebrows....
..keeps cold air off my forehead....
-
Welcome back word....
-
Yeah, likes been said, layers and layers. I wear my normal clothes then water/windproof camo trousers on top of my jeans and long johns, as well as my armoured leather bike jacket on my top half, under my M-65 US Army Parka ( designed for Arctic use). On my hands i wear my normal leather, armoured gloves but carry over mitts in my bag so if it gets too cold i can slip them on top. Also use a neck tube thing if its real bad out, the parka velcro's up well round the neck to keep out most wind.
Wearing all this i never really get cold at all on my way to work, 30min commute, and i still jave good freedom of movement. After crashing again last Monday on black ice i cant stress enough the protection offered by my leather armoured jacket under my big coat. Having had 4-5 wrecks now on bikes/scoots and on each occasion suffering zero road rash i wont really ride far without it on now. I mustve slid a good few yards along roads at various times and have been lucky not to have done myself any serious or lasting damage, thanks to wearing the correct gear.
-
Still we haven't mentioned the first layer: the windshield (of the scooter)
Even at 0°C and 90kph there is a big difference with/out, as I noticed when the wind shield of my Suzuki UE125 CT has been vandalised.
-
Still we haven't mentioned the first layer: the windshield (of the scooter)
Even at 0°C and 90kph there is a big difference with/out, as I noticed when the wind shield of my Suzuki UE125 CT has been vandalised.
I'd sooner freeze than look like a dork :D
The Agility, which i have, looks bad with a huge screen imo so i couldnt feel happy fitting one. If you have a scoot which does suit a big screen however then go for it 100%.
-
Hi TS,
I did a bad job with my question. In the states there is a strategy of taking a singe lane and to divide it into 3 sections -- the left side, the right side and the middle. Scooter/motorcycle riders are encourage to stay in a particular section depending on riding and road conditions.
For example, staying on the left side allows you to be seen by the side-view mirrors for large vehicles like trucks or buses, while keeping you visible for left hand turners in the opposing lane. Some prefer the middle because depending on the conditions -- say on wet roads -- and the camber of the surface, it may be higher and dryer. Sometimes the right is preferred on curvy tracts of road because traffic in the opposing land tends to cross over the middle yellow line on tight turns.
If Scooter/motorcyclist are to stay mainly in the right lane in Europe are there specific tactics used for riding in those 3 sections of a single lane?
Great tips on the army cold weather gear everyone. There's an army surplus store close to where I work. I'll be sure to check them out as the coldest months -- January and February -- have yet to come.
Anyone have a reliable weather website that they consult? I use Yahoo weather, which I think is just linked to the Weather Channel's site, but the forecast are right about half of the time.
-
If Scooter/motorcyclist are to stay mainly in the right lane in Europe are there specific tactics used for riding in those 3 sections of a single lane?
Yes, 2 major considerations:
Slow vehicles are urged (by law) to drive as far to the right as possible.
Whether in a particular situation snow/mud/garbage on the right rim make this (un)possible, is a favourite discussion topic with the officers. (Officers always winning.)
Faster vehicles (with flow of traffic) can use the whole width of the right lane. But the 2 cart tracks in many lanes, gully covers, road painting or the (usually parallel!) railway grooves of the cable cars, ... demand a flexible routing.
-
My Yager has a small windshield that requires that I duck under it to get full protection. However, it does work in windy conditions. I'm cautious about large windshields because I'm not sure how much of a sail factor they bring to riding control especially in crosswinds. I also ride a full-face modular helmet so the winds have less of an affect and effect on my physically comfort and on my riding control as they would if I didn't. Here's a good article on the subject that compares and contrast the subject:
http://www.articlesbase.com/motorcycles-articles/motorcycle-windshields-advantages-and-disadvantages-494503.html (http://www.articlesbase.com/motorcycles-articles/motorcycle-windshields-advantages-and-disadvantages-494503.html)
-Wolf
-
As for road position when riding, here in Scotland we drive on the left so you need to swap things around to suit your roads, we are told to ride just right of the centre of the lane unless turning left, so normally i will ride roughly where the drivers-side wheels run on the road if driving a car. That way the driver see's you i both his side and rear mirror, you avoid drains and crap at the side of the road, you are not too close to parked cars to get a door open in your face and have a better chance of avoiding any oedestrians who may step out onto the road from the pavement (may not affect you tho, i believe J-Walking is illegal in the US? Crazy). Riding off centre also means you can better take evasive action to avoid any car in front who decides to brake suddenly.
Least that was some of the reasons i was told.
-
Streido,
That's perfect - I ride the same way for the same reasons.
In an earlier post you mentioned that you've had 5 or 6 scooter crashes.
Safety has been on my mind a lot lately. You & others have got me thinking.
Were any lessons learned from those accidents that the rest of us might benefit from?
For example, I've only worn clothing to stay warm - I'm thinking I've been pushing my luck all these years and it's high time I bought some armor riding gear. I'm not getting any younger - my vision and reflexes can't be as good as they were 20 years ago.
Plus back then I had to ride everywhere every day - that scoot and I were 'one.' Now I ride as often as I can but only for fun.
KZ
-
Jay-walking is illegal in most places, but it's only really enforced in California. If a pedestrain steps in to the road a driver must stop and let them pass. In New jersey this only applies at cross walks -- but about half of all drivers really follow this law. In Philadelphia I've J-walked in front of cops, with cops, and walking behind cops. If you're not hit, no one cares.
Streido, thanks for the riding perspective from Scotland/UK. I had to turn my head a few time to get the orientation right, now it's all clear. In the US the consensus is to drive in the section of
the lane that allows you to be safe. This may vary depending on the road and driving conditions, and the weather. A 2-second following rule also plays a big part.
-Wolf
-
Yeah Wolf, i always leave plenty room in front now, prob about 2-3 secs usually, but double the braking distance you allkw in tbe wet or if carrying a passenger. I learned the hard way after one spill when i was following the guy ahead one wet day and getting frustrated at his slow speed. I ended up closer than usual trying to hurry him along then he braked, i paniced then braked too, the front wheel locked up and slid on the wet tarmac and i was left laying on the road like a dick while he drove off (probably laughing at me). I always leave space to brake or manouver past now. I also try use the rear brake slightly stronger than the front, my theory being i can control a rear wheel skid normally but a front wheel skid rarely.
Im sure my last count was 5 spills all in over the years, all my fault except one where i was rear ended by a car at a junction. Most where due to stupidity, inexperience, cheap tyres, pushing the bike/scoot too far, or riding in conditions i had no business riding in. Glad to say none have been real serious (touch wood), most only gave me bruising, swelling and sprains and strains. So far!. I learned something from every one of them and ride totally different to how i used to when i was younger and stupider, well usually, i still like to go a little stupid now and again for the thrills. I just do my dangerous riding a little more safely these days :D
Leather and Armour is my saviour. The jacket i still use now has slid along at least 2-3 roads with me on my back and is still fine, no tears, no rips or damage at all really. 1st time i crashed and got up i took off my nice new leather jacket almost in tears cks i had only had it a few weeks and i assumed it would be torn to shreds by the road, it wasnt tho, a good quality leather will last years and years. I wear mine every day, just the leather in summer, leather and a thin waterproof over it for showers or light wind, and leather under my M-65 Parka in heavy rain or wind or when its just damned cold :)
-
Streido, your the vetern scooter rider with the scars to show it! It's amazing what a difference a good riding jacket will do -- whether armor or leather. I still shake my head when I see guys riding Harleys in bermuda shorts, T-shirts, and flip-flops.
Another good thing about the 2-second rule is the time it gives you to react to road hazards. This is true if you're behind a truck, SUV, or bus and can't see what's on the road ahead. The 2 seconds is the minimum time you need (in theory) to react to potholes, open or loose manhole covers, or objects. The most common are road aligators - blown out tire parts, to bottles, and cans. The worst I've experieced are hub caps, tree branches, to a full size mattress. The one that still makes me think at night was a large sheet of carboard that was laying in the road during a rain fall. It was soaked, swollen and looked to be as slippery as a banna. I almost hit it coming around a curve doing 40.
I see scooter riders in city traffic who ride too close behind a bus thinking that they can hit their brakes faster than a large size vehicles. They forget they can't see what's on the road until it's too late.
Anyone know of a good way to treat a leather jacket that's been in the rain?
-Wolf
-
I still shake my head when I see guys riding Harleys in bermuda shorts, T-shirts, and flip-flops.
I admit that on holiday i have hired a scoot in the past and riden just like that (no flip-flops tho, i like my toes). If i lived in a warm, sunny climate i really doubt i would wear much for short commutes around town. Would def wear leather/leather armour for highway or longer riding tho even if it was warm and sunny. Stupid? Probably :D
Anyone know of a good way to treat a leather jacket that's been in the rain?
I normally just let mine dry out naturally over the back of a kitchen chair. Usually if i hang it there when i get in from work at 4:30pm then its dry for when i leave in the morning at 6:50am. If its really soaked tho i will move the chair over by the radiator in the kitchen to jelp dry it off. I would just hang it on the rad but i heard that drying out leather too quickly can damage it, may be true, may not be. Like i said tho i normally wear some other jacket on top of my leather if its raining, small light showers i wont bother,but rain or a longer ride in the wet and i do.
-
I let my jacket dry then I rub MINK OIL into the leather takes over a hour to do it proper,. my jacket is over 30 years old and after I mink it it looks like new also do your boots, it takes two or three days for the oil to penitrate in to the leather ,.
-
Striedo,
I think we've all worn the t-shirts and shorts in hot weather, but doing it on a 900 pound + bike is another thing -- that's more of what I meant.
De-dee, thanks for the advise on the mink oil. I'm now adding it to my Christmas list.
-Wolf
-
doing it on a 900 pound + bike is another thing -
Well that Harley guys for you. They'll still be posing in the back of the ambulance all the way to the hospital.
-
Part of my winter equipment
(http://img855.imageshack.us/img855/2216/winterausruestung.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/855/winterausruestung.jpg/)
1 = long john
2 = armoured textile flap throuser
3 = overcoat rain throuser
4 = long shirt
5 = armoured textile winter jacket with integrated collar and balaclava
6 = overcoat high vis rain jacket
7 = rain gaitors
8 = thin inner glove
9 = armoured 3-finger glove (in German "Schweineklaue" - "pigs claw")
10 = overcoat rain glove
11 = long thick rain proof balaclava
Not in picture:
boots, yellow hi vis backpack, Schuberth modular helmet
-
Serious armor! Do you store this on your scoot or just wear it and change at your destination -- like at work?
-Wolf
-
That's my maximum dressing when riding for hours in the cold. With that I already feel like a Michelin manikin.
On short trips I omit 1-2 layers and/or choose thinner clothes depending on the weather.
-
..nice skins ts!!!
8)
-
Just came back from a 1731.2km ride.
Weather alternating from some sun rays to freezing fog (had to scratch my visor!) with visibility <50m. Usually thin fog and covered sky.
Typical West German rural street:(http://imageshack.us/a/img688/7497/bild0053f.th.jpg) (http://"http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/688/bild0053f.jpg/")
You need the stuff if riding for some hours.
The day before yesterday and today I went >800km each day. (Yesterday few km, just visiting family.)