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Messages - scooterfan

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736
LIKE 200i / Re: For I Have Gone A Thousand Miles
« on: December 01, 2018, 03:15:35 AM »
   

100 miles: change motor oil.  200 miles: change gear oil, adjust valves.  300: change motor oil. 600:change motor oil.  800: check valves, replace plug, check air filter.  1000 miles: change motor and gear oil.  And that's it!  Easy as pie...



Very interesting reading.
Do the agents check valves clearances at 200 miles, again at 800 miles, and change spark plugs at 800 miles on all different size engines ?

737
Agility 50 / Re: Problems
« on: November 30, 2018, 05:50:10 PM »


I just looked up the service manual for Agility 50 on the Googler.   Kymco service manual published valve lash is .04mm.  That is .0015in.  Have fun adjusting that! Doesn't seem right.



Typical valve lash for the GY6 type engines is .004 inch. 

Check with your dealer.  I'm sure that they adjust them at 3-4 thousands of an inch.

Spot on. Adjusting clearances with a lash of even exactlly .o4 / 0015in. is no fun at all. I will be very surprized if well trained staff at the factury - who are involved in mass producition, have sufficient time to spent on close tollerances like that.

738
Agility 50 / Re: Problems
« on: November 30, 2018, 04:32:17 PM »
You, scooterfan, harping on valves is right on the money! Too many, including me, tend to forget that as a possibility.


If it was’nt for a couple of year’s experience at work before I retired, I would never know.
At certain engines (specially diesel) it became standard practice to check valve clearances on brand new engines. Specially if the engines came from a certain part of the world....

739
Agility 50 / Re: Problems
« on: November 30, 2018, 01:20:30 PM »
I passed some comments regarding valve clearance adjusments elsewhere earlier this week, and I am a bit hessitant to pass more comments here. People might start thinking the only thing I can think of is “valve clearance problems”.

But yes - if the problem can’t be detected easily one of the things that should be checked is the valve clearance gap at your engine.
Somebody at the forum mentioned that the valve clearance gap on 50cc engines is only 0.01mm. A gap that small is almost non existant. I think the manufacturer tries to sqeek as much power possible from a 50cc engine by using such a small gap to get a higher lift at the valves.
In theory a higher lift means the engine will breathe better, and generate more engine power.

In real life a small clearance gap like that needs very special care during adjustments, because the slightest of slight mistakes can easily cause a “no gap at all” situation - which can cause strange engine behaviour, and even burnt valves in the longer term.

I’ve mentioned this before - these engines get manufactured in very large numbers each year. There is no guarrantee that all gap clearances will be correct on all engines when it come from the factory.

In short - if you can’t find the problem elsewhere, get your valve clearances checked properly.
Simply because in a O.01 setup, the slightest of slight mistakes can easily means there might be no valve clearance gap at all.

740
General Discussion / Re: Do you look over, or through screen?
« on: November 30, 2018, 05:00:32 AM »
In motorcycle circles the general accepted “rule” is that the top level of the screen should be at the rider’s nose height. To my experience there is no need to mount screens higher than nose height on a motorcycle - because motorcycles in genera get used for riding on open roads at higher speed.
If the top of the screen is at nose level, rain and wind gets deflected over the top of a helmet at higher speed.

In most countries scooters get used for commuting purposes at lower speed in town. I have no experience with “look through” screens, but I think it make sense to mount these type of high screens if the scooter mainly gets used for commuting in town at lower speed. The high screens will create more wind resistance, but the rider will get more protection against rain and wind.


741
Agility 125 / Re: Valve Clearance Adjustents - 125 Agility (2009 model)
« on: November 29, 2018, 05:02:41 AM »
Your write-up is excellent! Hey, Kymco! Gotta a guy here to write your manuals so English-speaking people can understand!

Have you an owners manual? I think all the placards/stickers are in there.

Thanks ! My first language is not English, so I’m glad if the wright up is understandable. I had to make several changes to make it look better.

The wright up can be used on all different size Kymco engines - even if the camshaft sprocket on other size engines do not have holes which line up with the upper level of the cylinder head when the piston is at TDC.
The prinsipal regarding valve clearance adjustments on all engines on our planet remains the same - the piston needs to]be in TDC position, and the two camshaft lobes must be faceing the opposite side of the rockers when valve clearances get adjusted.
If the camshaft does’nt have holes which will line up with the upper level of the cylinder head when the piston is in TDC position, the sprocket WILL have a mark which lines up with another mark elsewhere.

To find out where the marks are, one can just do the following :
1. Remove the spark plug (it’s easier to turn the engine a couple of times by hand at the cooling fin pully)
2. While turning the engine a couple of times at the cooling fin by hand, just have a close look at the two cam lobes on the camshaft.
    - When the two lobes are faceing the OPPOSITE side of the rocker, just look for a mark somewhere on the sprocket - as well for a mark somewhere on the cylinder head, or bracket which holds the rocker.
The two marks WILL line up when the piston is at TDC position.   

In short - if you just follow the comments (above), you WILL be able to do proper valve clearance adjustments on any given engine with an “overhead cam”.

742
Agility 125 / Re: Valve Clearance Adjustents - 125 Agility (2009 model)
« on: November 28, 2018, 04:22:48 PM »
Aren't the valve, idle speed, timing, plug gap, etc. specs on a label under the seat?
Specs are there on all four of my scooters (Kymco, Piaggio, Suzuki, Honda)


Stig

I’ve just had a look under the seat - there is no lable or indication about any specs.

Hopefully more Agility owners will have a look under their seats and forward specs if they find anything.

743
Agility 125 / Re: Won't restart after running
« on: November 25, 2018, 03:58:38 PM »
OP has a no start - cold or hot....NO start.
Let's keep thinking. .....
Stig

Just have another look at the heading, as well as his comments.

The heading says “ Won’t restart after running “. He never said he experienced a “cold or hot” no start  situation.
To my mind he was referred to a RESTART problem - after the scoot was “running all day”. Common sense tells me the engine will be hot after running all day.

744
Agility 125 / Re: Won't restart after running
« on: November 25, 2018, 03:05:27 PM »
Sits on back of motor home a lot...750 km since new...2014...now 2018....runs with start fluid dumped in its throat...won't start with on board fuel....! IT IS NOT GETTING FUEL!! 1. Fuel in tank?(sorry, had to ask!) 2. vacuum operated fuel valve opening? 3. tiny jets in carb plugged? Bet it is one or more of these three. The key is the information you gave after Stig asked. OK, now you gotta check all that. We can't wait to hear your results!


So if the carb “IS NOT GETTING FUEL”....... where is the fuel suddenly coming from once he got it started with start fluid ?
Does he keep on dumping start fluid down the scoot’s throat to “keep on running all day” ?

I repeat - this is a typical symtom  when valve clearance gaps are too small.

745
Agility 125 / Re: Won't restart after running
« on: November 25, 2018, 07:29:49 AM »
Hi bud,

It's not unusual for the valves to be too tight out of the crate. I'd really recommend checking them anyway as a first port of call. I think they're really likely to be too tight.

I fully agree. This is a tipical example of valve clearance gaps which are too small. The engine will start easily and perform normally when cold - but once the engine is warm the engine loses power and the engine battles to start.

If valve clearances are correct, the engine will start just as easy as when cold.

Check those valve clearances guys - there is no guarrantee that the clearances will be correct, even when the engine is brand new.  I’ve seen this many times on different brands of engines on the market during my lifetime - including the best on the market.
Think “mass production”. All engines are manufactured in large numbers each year. Incorrect clearance settings are not unusual.

746
Agility 125 / Valve Clearance Adjustents - 125 Agility (2009 model)
« on: November 24, 2018, 08:31:30 PM »
I bought my 2009 125 Agility with just more than 8400 km on the clock during te previous week. In very good condition, it still looks brand new.

Since I started riding the scoot I noticed that when cold, the engine started instantly. But after the engine got hot, the engine needed quite a number of swings to get started.
I also noticed that when the engine was still cold, the scoot picked up speed easily. But when the engine got hot, it became a mission to pick up speed after 80 km/h.
I immediately realized that the valve clearance gaps were probably to small.

Maybe I should mention - before I retired at work, part of my job was to train other people how to do valve clearance settings on all sorts of air cooled engines. I never had any experience on Kymco engines - but the principle on how to adjust valve clearances on all engines remains the same.
So I realized adjusting valve clearances on the 125 should be dead easy - I just had to find the correct gap specs to do the clearances.

Finding the correct gap specs on the 125 engines became more difficult than doing the gap settings itself. The numbers were all over the place. The suggested numbers varied between 0.04mm,  0.1mm. ,  and 0.12mm.
I would never even try wasting time on the “0.04” and “0.1” mm. To my mind settings  like that would be looking for trouble on engines like these.

So I decided to set the gap at 0.12 mm.

Doing the adjustments was dead easy. After the valve cover was removed and the engine being turned to Top Dead Centre, I immediately realized that my initial thoughts were correct. The valve clearances on both valve rockers were too small. At Top Dead Centre both rockers are suppose to be slightly “loose” - and I was suppose to feel at least some play on both rockers by hand. No luck - there was NO play on the exhaust valve rocker, and only a slight play on the inlet valve rocker.

In short - the valve clearances have been set at 0.12mm. I guess that’s the “correct” spec. Since the setting was done at 0.12mm, the “warm start problem” disappeared completely.  In fact, when hot the engine now starts in a split second when I hit the button - just like when the engine get started when cold.
Since the 0.12mm setting the “accelleration problem” between 80 to 100km/h has disappeared as well. Due to speed limit restrictions in our area I have’nt try to go faster than 100km/h yet.

For the time being I am quite happy with the 0.12 setting. I do not know whether the valve clearances on my 125 have ever been re-adjusted before. To my experience with several (even reliable) well known brands of small engines, it often makes sense to dubbel check on valve clearances - even when the engines are new. These things are getting manufactured in enormous numbers each year, and incorrect settings are not uncommon.

Just in case anyone need some advice on how to do valve clearance adjustments:

1. The engine needs to be COLD before adjustments get done.
2. Get rid of all dust in the valve cover area. Use an air compressor if possible.
3. Remove the rubber hoses at the top and bottom of the valve cover.
4.Remove the spark plug. (Not really needed, but it makes it easier to swing the engine in correct
   position.     
5. Remove valve Cover. (Four main bolts + two nuts which holds the breather pype)
6. Remove the engine cooling fan cover (Not needed if you have the correct socket for the nut at the center of the cooling fins -to swing the engine)

Important
Valve  adjustments need to be done when the piston is at TDC (top dead center) position. To get the piston in TDC position :
1. Have a close look at the camshaft Sprocket. The sprocket has four holes between the teeth and center bolt. Two of these holes are smaller than the other two holes.
When the piston is in TDC position, the two SMALLER holes will be in line with the upper level of the cylinder head.
So
2. Swing the engine by hand (by turning the cooling fins) untill  the two smaller holes at the camshaft sprocket get in line with the upper level of the cylinder head.

IMPORTANT

3. Now have a close look at the two camshaft lobes (which lift the rockers).
   - If the piston is TDC position, both camshaft lobes are  faceing the opposite side of the
     rockers (at an angle, towards the rear tyre), the piston will be in TDC position and
     clearances can be adjusted.
   - If both camshaft lobes are faceing the rockers (at an angle towards to front tyre) the engine is
     NOT in TDC position.
      This means the camshaft needs to be turned 180 degrees - untill the two SMALLER holes
     at the cam sprocket are in line with the upper level of the cylinder head again.
     (Turning the engine 360 degrees by hand at the cooling fin pully, means the camshaft
      will turn 180 degrees).
     Have a close look at the camshaft lobes again. The lobes will be facing towards the rear tyre (at
     an angle), and the piston will be in TDC position.
     The clearances can now be adjusted by:
4. Unlocking the 10mm locknuts at the rockers, using a fueller gage, and adjusting the adjustment
    screws at the center of the locknuts. The locknuts obviously need to be locked when the
    settings are done. Just hold the center screw with pliers while the locknut gets locked, otherwise
     the center screw will move and the gap will be to small.

 IMPORTANT

After the locknuts at the rockers have been tightened, dubbel check the clearance gap with the fueler gage again. The rockers must only have a slight “bite” on the fueler gage. Just a slight bite, it mus’nt be too tight. If the feuler gage does’nt slide into the gap fairly easy, it means the gap is too small.

It is important to know that when the locknuts at the rockers get locked during  settings, the gaps tend to get smaller - even when the fueler gage is still in place, and the center screw gets held by pliers, a screwdriver, spanner, etc.  Therefore the gap MUST be dubbel checked again.
In reality - during the initial settings the rockers should only have a slight bite on the feuler gage, then the adjusting screw at the center should be loosened VERY slightly before the lock nut gets locked. Otherwise the gaps WILL be too small. This is applicable on all engines, not Kymco only.

Just remember to put the cooling fan cover, as well as the spark plug back in place (if removed).

Unless these 125cc four stroke engines have been changed since 2009, I can’t think of any reason why valve clearance adjustments on later models should be done any different as described above.





747
Agility 125 / Re: CVT drive-train Inspection
« on: November 23, 2018, 07:17:14 PM »
Well, since my previous post I was thinking about these CVT transmissions again, and I realized that I was cought with pants down by a few Youtube videos which indicated that “top gear” ratio will change if the belt gets thinner.
This is simply not true. All  “gear ratios” will ALLWAYS remain the same - even if he belt becomes a lot thinner.
The reasoning for my statement is very simple - If the belt gets worn (thinner) and start “sagging” down into the rear pulley it will also start “sagging” down into the front pulley. The distance it will sag down into both pulleys will be exactly the same - therefore “gear ratio” will ALWAYs remain the same.

It might sounds like a “no problem” situation, but I am convinced that if the belts start sagging down into the grooves, the belt length will not be correct any longer - even if the belt did’nt stretch. Simply because the belt will be sitting deeper into both pulleys.
This means the “slag side” of the belt will cause an uneven grip on both pulleys, which will cause more stress and heat on the belt, as well as both pulleys - because the work load will be spread over a smaller area on all components.

In short - I decided to change the belt at 12 000 km, even if it “looks good” to last 20 000 km. Right or wrong, I am quite convinced that should the belts be replaced more often, the lifespan the pulleys might be extended.

748
Technical | How To / Re: kymco drive belt slipping
« on: November 22, 2018, 07:08:28 PM »
Sorry about replying here, I’m just an owner of a 125 Agility  :-[

Today I removed my Agility’s dust cover for the first time, and noticed the following :

1. There is no water drain outlet at the lowest point of the cover / housing.

2. The Agility comes with a gasket  between the cover and main housing. If the gasket is missing, I think water might accumilating inside the cover, just by washing the scooter.

3. The cover has a dust outlet opening more or less at the center (bottom) of the cover, but this opening (hole) is not at the lowest point of the cover. Which means if you ever ride in deep water, the water might get inside, and will be trapped inside the cover. Depending on what the cover at your scooter looks like, I think water might even get splashed into to the dust outlet when you ride in rainy conditions as well.

I think the solution would be just to drill a small utlet hole at the lowest point of the dust cover.

749
Trust me, those old air cooled things were never as reliable as later water cooled models. Slow riding in heavy traffic killed many engines prematurely.


750
Agility 125 / Re: CVT drive-train Inspection
« on: November 22, 2018, 05:38:43 PM »
The width is almost irrelevant since the various makes are not always exactly the same from one make to another.  Close is good enough, and you won't be able to tell the difference.  If you're really hammering it, the belt will eventually start to show some loose threads after maybe 20,000km.  I've never had one break, even the cheap ones.  They seem like they could last a lifetime.  It's possible an expensive Kevlar belt just might last forever.

After inspecting the belt, I do agree with your comments  for several reasons:

1. The belt is an original Kymco belt, and the current width was taken with a digital vernier. After just more than 8400 km the width of the belt is 19.01mm.
2. The belt dust found inside the cover, as well as a slight ridge at the top of the sides of the belt is a clear indication that at least some wear already took place, but nothing to worry about.
3. The “shiny” part at the rear pully (where the belt gets in contact with the two sides of the pulley) still indicates that the belt still moves almost right to the top of the pulley in “top gear”, so the little wear (20mm less 19.01mm = 0.09mm) during about 8400 km really does’nt bother me.
4. The belt still looks almost brand new, and I think it should last 20k without reason for concern.

In short - I really like my Agility’s AVT setup. I just had to clean some belt dust which was trapped inside the cover. The variator has cooling fins, not like all other 125 variators I saw at youtube. I think the fins at the variator definitely helps with cooling, and will help to extend the lifespan of all components. Everything just looks solid and reliable.
I will probably just remove the CVT cover at 16 000km to get rid of belt dust, and inspection.

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