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Messages - Vision4

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1
General Discussion / Re: Should a new Downtown 350i consume/burn oil?
« on: April 30, 2019, 11:54:17 PM »
Quote from: pa-outdoorsman on April 30, 2019, 02:40:34 PM
I don't know if this is the case with your bike, but one person earlier in this thread brought up the idea that manufacturers use the same dipstick for multiple models, and that "full" for your machine may or may not read as full on the dipstick. I just wanted to circle back to this because on my UXV 450i, when I received it brand new from the dealer about six weeks ago, the oil level on the dipstick was right in the middle of the acceptable range on the dipstick - not low, not high.

This past weekend, I did the first oil change. After refilling the engine with the amount of oil recommended in the owner's manual (2.5 quarts), guess where the oil level is on the dipstick? That's right; right in the middle of the run range. So, I would not see any reason to "top it off" by adding a little more oil, and I wonder if the engine would consume oil if I did until it returned to the current level.

At any rate, just thought I would share this, because I think the suggestion someone else gave regarding draining the oil, filling to exact manual specs and then monitoring is a good one. You may have already done that, but perhaps this will be helpful for someone else down the line. At any rate, I wish you the best of luck with your machine and hope you get your problem resolved soon.

Thank you for that suggestion!

We did talk about that earlier on this thread. I said i don't really think that that's the case because, first of all, i did check the oil level a couple of times before the first service and it was perfectly fixed on the higher level on the dipstick.

Second of all, the oil level on the dipstick went down almost all the way, so it was well below the halfpoint. And i don't find it likely that that's normal because how would i know then if the oil pressure is dangerously low? there would be no way to tell. other then when the oil/engine light goes on i guess. doesn't seem reasonable anyway.

Stig - I did check the manual of course, and it says there that the dipstick should "rest" on the lip without any screwing.

So i really don't think that the way i'm checking oil, or the way in which the oil pressure shows on the dipstick are the issues here.

KymcoRockr - Well, right know i'm really just hoping for any response from them. Which in itself is highly unlikely as i understand.

If they decide to stand behind the dealer, and call that "natural consumption", fine. They'll at least give me a certain limit for the consumption, and that would be a closer to this story.
if they decide to be honest, and tell me i'm right, all the better.

But even though i really hope i get a response, i don't believe i will.

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General Discussion / Re: Should a new Downtown 350i consume/burn oil?
« on: April 28, 2019, 06:33:58 PM »
Quote from: Forbes1964 on April 25, 2019, 11:05:00 PM
I always believe in starting with the simple before panicking. And the absolute simplest thing to do is to change the oil at the next oil change and put the EXACT oil in that’s recommended by Kymco for your operating conditions. Then drive normally and see what happens. The other things we may have suggested are VERY premature. Even the condemnation of the dealer based on their calling it “normal “ is premature. No need to make them your enemy before you know for certain if an actual problem exists, or if it’s simply a fluke.

As my mother often says when we worry prematurely and come up with worse case scenarios as a FIRST reaction, “Now don’t you go BORROWING TROUBLE “.  Lol.

Thanks a whole lot:) that actually cheered me up.

I will change the oil the first chance i get. Right now i'm still hoping i get a response from Kymco.

Fingers crossed

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General Discussion / Re: Should a new Downtown 350i consume/burn oil?
« on: April 25, 2019, 02:20:26 PM »
Quote from: Stig on April 25, 2019, 12:48:36 AM
Vision 4,
I hope we have been able to shed some light on your original question.
Feel free to let us know what you do, and what the dealer does regarding your scooter.



The direction this thread is taking is not what we like to see on this forum.
The Moderator

This forum has been nothing but helpfull. Thank you very much.

I will update on what's going on

4
General Discussion / Re: Should a new Downtown 350i consume/burn oil?
« on: April 24, 2019, 06:38:37 PM »
Hey, first of all, thanks for this comment!

Quote from: KymcoRockr on April 24, 2019, 05:57:00 PM
First of all, drain the oil out of the bike and put in the amount that the manual calls for.
I am seriously thinking about doing that, the thing is i need to get some stuff like a measuring container, oil drain container and a tourqe wrench i think (According to the users manual the oil drain plug should be tightend with a very speciefic tourqe).

Quote from: KymcoRockr on April 24, 2019, 05:57:00 PM
then you will know how the correct amount of oil is going to look on your dipstick.
Interesting idea. So youre saying the dealer might have filled too much oil at the first service, and then the oil was decreasing towards the correct level and should have stopped there? The thing is tho - the oil level reached very close to the lowest level on the dipstick. Do you think the perfect oil amount will show on that very low level and keep stable? if it will, than that sounds like a defect. How am i suppose to know then if the oil pressure is dangerously low? If the perfect amount is already represented by just a few milimeters above the lowest point? that can't be right. 

And one more thing, durning the first 1000km the oil level was fixed, on the higest level on the dipstick. how does that settle with your theory?

Quote from: KymcoRockr on April 24, 2019, 05:57:00 PM
If you get really enthusiastic adding oil..... Your bike is probably fine, and if you keep filling it with oil, you are more likely to shorten it's life than if you put in the correct amouont of oil and leave it alone.......
I have not filled one drop of oil, not once. When i went to the dealer after 1800km they filled like 100-200cc and that was it.

Quote from: KymcoRockr on April 24, 2019, 05:57:00 PM
if you ride an oversquare single cylinder at high rpms all  the time, it does use oil.
I do not ride on high RPMs at all. Quite the contrary. Most of my rides are within the city.

Quote from: KymcoRockr on April 24, 2019, 05:57:00 PM
most of the customers will think you are an idiot or loser. The dealer is more than likely to tell them something that makes you look even dumber, but it doesn't deter customers. The other employees will point you out to customers and laugh. The customers will laugh too

That's plain wrong. The dealer did not tell any customer anything about me, No one was dissrespectfull or laughed, and some customers i talked to after i argued with the mechanic actually agreed with me. Actually every other custumer i talked to. and every other Downtown owner iv'e had the chance to ask.

Quote from: KymcoRockr on April 24, 2019, 05:57:00 PM
Do you think the dealer will ever go out of their way to help you in the future?

You got that very wrong as well. I think they will definetly go out of their way to avoid helping me. That's why i'm thinking about making them(in court). But that "Natural oil consumption" stuff complicates things. So I'm really just trying to figure out for sure if there's a problem, or is it indeed natural and normal.

Quote from: KymcoRockr on April 24, 2019, 05:57:00 PM
In most States, scooters and motorcycles are not covered by the Lemon Law.

I'm not from the states nor do i know what this "Lemon law" is.

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General Discussion / Re: Should a new Downtown 350i consume/burn oil?
« on: April 23, 2019, 06:36:46 PM »
Quote from: Viper254 on April 22, 2019, 06:50:31 PM
They're delivered from the manufacturer with transit oil in them, and then sent out as-is by the dealer until their first oil change.

Thanks!

So, given that the oil Kymco reccommends for my scooter is SAE 5W-50, can i assume this is the oil the scooter came with?

And if i can, that might imply that the oil does have something to with the problem:

Scooter came with the reccomended oil, did not consume any oil, at 1000km they changed it to 5w-40 which is not on the list of the reccomended ones from Kymco, and the scooter started consuming oil.

maybe its a good idea to get the exact reccomended one - 5W-50 - and see how it goes?



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General Discussion / Re: Should a new Downtown 350i consume/burn oil?
« on: April 22, 2019, 06:38:13 PM »
I dont think it was low before the oil change. The problem started after the 1000km service.
i'll try a non-synthetic oil. see how it goes.

The waranty will void at 2021, so there's plenty of time left. But even if the consumption does increase. they can keep claiming that's "natural oil consumption" all they want. what's gonna stop them? unless they will indeed show me in writing what's the tolerance like you suggested. which i highly doubt.

By the way, stupid question - does anyone know if a new scooter is delivered from the factory with oil already in it? Or is it first exported, and then the dealer puts in the oil?

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General Discussion / Re: Should a new Downtown 350i consume/burn oil?
« on: April 22, 2019, 05:53:17 AM »
Forbes1964 - They actually put in the synthetic oil at 1000km, which is after the break in period. I don't know what they used before that (from the get-go). Though i doubt the type of oil is the problem. I imagine they use the same type on hunderds of scooters like mine every month.

john grinsel, stuo - Durning the break-in period, what i did was let the engine run idle until it reached working temperature. which is around 4-5 minutes. does that count as a long time?  That was a recommendation i got from many people, also several sources(articles, videos) online.

Since after the break in period, i let it run idle for about 2-3 minutes usually. And just as you mentioned, i keep low revs for the first couple of minutes.

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General Discussion / Re: Should a new Downtown 350i consume/burn oil?
« on: April 21, 2019, 07:54:21 AM »
Quote from: Stig on April 21, 2019, 01:34:17 AM
Please give your engine more miles of break in.
I wonder if a different oil will reduce consumption?

Thanks. I will give it more time and keep track. Doesn't seem like i have any other choice at this point anyway.

You meantioned different oil. I have noticed something weird. 
When the dealership changes my oil at 1000km, i noticed they put in oil in a different viscocity then recommended in the manual. 

the oil they put in is syntetic SAE 5W-40, While the oil visocity that's reccomended in the users manual is SAE 5W-50.

there are several other alternative viscocities mentioned in the manual, but none of them is 5W-40.

could that be the problem?

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General Discussion / Re: Should a new Downtown 350i consume/burn oil?
« on: April 21, 2019, 07:41:25 AM »
Quote from: Forbes1964 on April 21, 2019, 12:27:10 AM
At the very least, ask them to SHOW YOU where Kymco says that x amount of oil consumption is acceptable after the break-in period. Then go from there. Contact Kymco if there’s anyway possible, and get them involved.

Well the mechanic did say that up to 300cc for every 1000 km is normal. Which, by the way, seems absurd to me. That would mean, given that the service intervals are 5K, that i lose 1.5 liters of oil between services! 150%.  On a brand new bike! I mean seriously, does that not sound ridiculous?
 
And as for them showing me where kymco says that, i can try that even though i doubt there's a phyisical document or something. And in anycase, they can just lie. Fabricate any document they want. How would i confirm what they say? They are the only dealer in the country, And according to what CROSSBOLT said (which i really hope will prove wrong), there's no way for me to contact Kymco. They can keep feeding me BS as much as they want.

And let me tell you something else. That bike is one for the few top sellers in the country for the past 4 years since it came out. That means there are thousends of them in the streets, Particularly in my city. And so i get a lot of chances to have small talks with other owneres in intersections and such. So far i've talked to more than 15 different owners. And, you guessed it, None of their bikes consumes oil. Not durning the break in, not after the break in and not for many thousends of miles after that. Not 300cc and not 100cc. They don't have to fill a single drop of oil in between services.

And im sure that'll still be the case after i ask another 100 owners.

So how come my engine is the only one that "naturaly" consumes oil? That's such an obvious, blatant lie.




10
General Discussion / Re: Should a new Downtown 350i consume/burn oil?
« on: April 21, 2019, 12:31:31 AM »
I just found something extremly depressing.

this is from an official Kymco workshop/service manual for Downtown 125i:


That scooter has a similar single cylinder 4-stroke engine like mine so that's probably written in my bike's manual as well.

that blows the steam out of my case.

they can just claim that's "natural oil consumption" and i have no way to prove otherwise.

what the hell is even a natural oil consumption? i went through the whole manual and there's not another word on that subject. like how much oil consumption is considered "natural"? and how can you tell if an oil decrease is "natural" or not?. And why would they mention it? that's a perfect cover up. just call it "natural consumption" so you dont have to do s*** when someone buys your bike and the engine is f***** up.

apparently it's not my dealers attidute. it's Kymco themselves who claim that oil decrease is normal.
I dont see anything i can do now other then just live with that.

unbelievble.


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General Discussion / Re: Should a new Downtown 350i consume/burn oil?
« on: April 21, 2019, 12:15:53 AM »
Quote from: Forbes1964 on April 20, 2019, 11:34:26 PM
You all have expressed opinions which have merit. But if scooters are anything like automobiles, there’s a rhyme and reason to dealing with claims of  excess oil consumption in order for a dealer to deal with it and for the manufacturer to honor any warranty. It’s performed AFTER the break in period. The customer should suggest an “OIL CONSUMPTION TEST “ in order to begin the process.
1. It MUST be documented by an oil consumption test per the manufacturer. With Ford that includes THE DEALER performing an oil change, marking the level on the dipstick, and marking the drain plug , so  it can be detected if the customer tampers with the drain plug after it leaves. (Not all customers are honest either).
2. The miles are recorded and documented.
3. The customer drives in a normal manner and regularly checks the oil until A. The level drops by a certain amount or B. The mileage is reached for the next oil change. He can check it himself or bring it to the dealer during this time.
4. The customer brings it back to the dealer for them to document the findings and record the mileage.
5 the findings are compared with the OFFICIAL manufacturer’s specifications. This is typically allows more consumption than typical to allow for the fact that some indeed do drive their vehicles like a bat from the underworld. But in practice, most vehicles either pass with flying colors or fail miserably. Very few either barely pass or barely fail.

If these procedures are not followed precisely and the dealer replaces an engine based on just the customer’s word, the DEALER will end up EATING the repair.
 The dealer will have WRITTEN information from the manufacturer which states the allowable oil consumption, not just him expressing an opinion. Simply taking either the dealers word for it is not sufficient.
Dealers lie. Customers lie. Improper oil is sometimes used. Mistakes are made during oil changes. But the oil consumption test with DOCUMENTED results does not lie. I have no idea what KYMCO’s process is. But I’m sure they have some Official process.  The customer should insist that it’s followed rather than the dealer just saying “looks ok to me”. Good luck sir.

Thanks a lot for this explanation! that was an interesting read.
I will ask them to do an oil consumption test though i doubt they'll agree. honestly, i doubt they even do those in general, judging by their attitude.

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General Discussion / Re: Should a new Downtown 350i consume/burn oil?
« on: April 20, 2019, 09:20:50 PM »
Quote from: CROSSBOLT on April 20, 2019, 07:44:15 PM
After two 2013 DT300i scoots took about 7500 miles each to stabilize, I think you have longer to think about! Now, neither consumed any oil in that time, just used less and less fuel until that number stopped going up. Started about 65-68 mpg and topped at 73-75 mpg. Oil never varied. Same for a Like200i and a Yager 200i. Same distance just bigger mpg!

I see your point, it is true that different parts of the scooter have different break-in periods.

But regarding my specific problem, the only part that matters is the engine (assuming there's no oil leak, which i have not yet found). Or even more specificly, assuming i have it right, the problem is  originating from one of 2 parts of the engine: (please someone tell me if i'm wrong).

*Either there's a problem with the fitment between the piston ring and the cylinder, which will allow oil to make its way from the crank shaft to the combustion chamber, and then burn along with the air and fuel mixture, resulting in oil loss + excess fuel usage + HP loss.

*Or there's a problem with the valves seals, which will allow oil to enter the combustion chamber from the cylinder head area. which will also result in the same symptoms.

The main risk from not breaking in the engine properly is the former case. (the valves seals don't really require breaking-in as far as i know).

And according to many sources and people i've talked to, it's a pretty definite consensus that the break-in period for the piston/cylinder is at most 1000km, and as i've mentioned earlier, it seems like the majority of proffesionals these days claim that it's actually much less than that in modern engines.

so 1800km (actually i'm on 2000 by now) should be more then enough.

P.S.
if anything i have written here is wrong i'll be very glad to know and be enlightened.(seriously).

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General Discussion / Re: Should a new Downtown 350i consume/burn oil?
« on: April 20, 2019, 06:52:23 PM »
Quote from: john grinsel on April 20, 2019, 03:51:01 PM
I think scooter in complaint needs to be run-in.   Start with full/correct oil level.  measure correctly after long rides or at least every 500km   repeat several times over let's say 3,000 km----oil really goes down....then there is problem.

That seems like a really long period for break in, doesn't it?  According to some research i did, 1000km/600 miles should be more than enough. there's a bunch of people including mechanics who are arguing that even those 1000km are not really neccessery in modern engines, and that only the first  50-100 kilometers are important for making the piston ring and cylinder fit perfectly.  And manufacturers keep that reccomendation because it's good for buisness. (the more carefully you drive durning warranty period - less chance for problems appearing that they have to fix).

some articles and videos iv'e seen (like that one ) even claim that with the level of precision in which engine parts are manufactured today, there's little to no meaning for a break-in period at all. (not for the engine anyways).

but 3000 - 5000 km? that's gonna take like half a year

i definetly will ride as much as i can tho, to try and quantify and document the problem. gonna come usefull in court 

 

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General Discussion / Re: Should a new Downtown 350i consume/burn oil?
« on: April 19, 2019, 10:52:47 PM »
Quote from: CROSSBOLT on April 18, 2019, 06:23:13 PM
you can get NO response from Kymco Taiwan (or Kymco Global as they like).

Seriously? have you tried? that is extremely discouraging. They did not answer my emails so i recently sent a letter to their head office. i really need them to answer. that would simplify things.

stuo - Thanks for the suggestions! the idea with the oil smoke from the exhaust sounds nice, i'll try that. and i do actually have an official form from them with the date and description of the problem. I think that's a good enough proof that i came within the warranty period. Also the bike is brand new so there's more than a year and a half left.

If i can't get a response from Kymco, i won't give up, but that would complicate things. might have to take this to court.

for those who asked, i don't live in the US.


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General Discussion / Re: Should a new Downtown 350i consume/burn oil?
« on: April 18, 2019, 05:39:46 PM »
Thanks for all the replys!

As for the break-in period - i drove through it exactly as recommended by the dealership and some research i did on my own. I did not reach very high revs, i always let the engine warm up in idle for a couple of minutes before driving, i was not aggressive with the throttle, i started slow and chill, i never stayed on a constant RPM for more than a little while, and i let the engine cool down every 15-30 minutes on average for about 10-15 minutes.

about the way i check the oil level - i do always make sure the bike is perfectly leveled, and follow the instructiones as you described, and i also check it very frequently since i noticed the problem, about twice a day. so the readings i get should be reliable. 

john grinsel - i do not trust them for advice one bit, the thing is, i need them to fix it and they won't. because they claim that there's nothing to fix.

this is unbelievebly frustrating. i saved up a long time for time bike, spent well over 8000 dollars, and when there's a problem they feed me BS and avoid helping me.
what's more frustrating is that i have no where else to go, they're the only official KYMCO dealership in the country.

Right now i'm trying to get in touch with the KYMCO head office in Taiwan. they don't seem to respond to my emails. I hope they can help me in any way cuz otherwise im just lost.

anyone ever managed to get in touch with them?


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