s250 need hard / no starting guidance

[mrbios]

Thats a tough one. 

[ifican]

I always have to chuckle at how this scooter has a mind of its own. Long and short of it, I finally put carb back on (basic go over no issues found). After initially cranking to get fuel down line into carb, fired right up. Shut it down turned it back on several times no real issue. a few times 1-2 seconds of cranking but always fired right up. Rode to gas station refueled came back home, went to start and just cranking. So getting a bit frustated put volt meter back on with light off 12.6v with light on 12.15ish, cranking 11ish. Put charger on battery for 2 minutes and it fired right up. After all this i am leaning towards battery being the issue and am mad at myself for letting it fool me.  I am going to do some research now but any one have a sure fire way to test battery without the use of a tester? Battery is a walmart everstart that is on the order of 18 months old.

Update:

Pulled the battery cover and all of the cells were low with 3 of them showing exposed plates. Filled with distilled water and now its on a slow charge.  Will update when i know for sure.

[mrbios]

That's a good update for the thread.  The battery can be removed and tested at an auto store - might want to call first to verify that they can test an mc battery.  You could also jump the scoot to a running car for max voltage and see if that makes a difference.  Either or both could provide more clues.

[ifican]

So why chatting with my neighbor came to find out he has an electronic tester, even with the cells low it showed good. After filling the cells and charging i can tell you for sure its the battery. I have started it now 5 times over the course of an hour and it fires like it should on the first crank. I cannot say that this battery will hold a charge but i am sure the battery is the key player in the weird issues i have been having. Im just floored at myself that i lived with it not starting very well for so long. Makes sense now after the fact seeing how low the electrolyte level was. This has been going on a long time. My only concern now is if this one got ruined or not from my charging it in the state it was in. I am going to put some time on it over the next couple weeks and will report back conclusively at that time. Though i feel really good right now, the pop it now has on firing it hasnt had in quite a long time.

[de dee]

That's a good update for the thread.  The battery can be removed and tested at an auto store - might want to call first to verify that they can test an mc battery.  You could also jump the scoot to a running car for max voltage and see if that makes a difference.  Either or both could provide more clues.

  Do not jump start from a running car ,   voltage too high, over 16 volts,  some one reported that it fried there electrical system in there scooter, jump start from battery only!!!   car not running!

[ifican]

So original issue is resolved, turned out to be the battery even though it didnt appear to be so with voltage reading. I have a residual problem if need be i will start a new thread on. But quickly simply this, cold start is perfect (cranks then fires and roars to life). However hot start never really fires it just starts running. Really hard to explain but basically the starter spins up the motor (maybe 3 seconds) it never makes that initial fire im starting sounds. I can just tell its running so i let off the starter and its idling. Its odd behavior for sure but not like i need to pump gas or do anything different. Its starts just fine but never makes that initial fire pop like it does when its cold.

[mrbios]

That is strange behavior.  I have rarely experienced that although hot starting is often a problem requiring me to twist the throttle 1/4 to 1/4 then it starts.  Be very careful about not over filling or putting gas all the way up in to the filler neck as I did for a number of years.  I suspect the charcoal canister gets gas leaking into it then provides and overly rich mixture.  Just a theory which I'm testing by not over filling and seeing if hot starting improves. 

What you describe I experienced with a lawn tractor.  Keep cranking and the motor might star but still requires the starter for a few more seconds to prevent stalling until the idle can stabilize.

[ifican]

Similar but not quite same same. So for the more technically inclined it acts exactly opposite of bad rings. Its almost as if it cant build compression when hot but I dont see that as the real issue because after starting it runs great. Idles perfect and accelerates no different than any other time. In real world timing, morning start is perhaps 1 second and acts normal. Warm,hot or basically most of the rest of the day after its been made good and hot, perhaps 2 - 2.5 seconds. Its not alot of cranking or what i would call hard starting its just a few more cranks than when cold and not a "fire". I have figured out over time the starter sound changes to where it sounds like its no longer working to turn the motor. Once i hear that i let off and its idling.

[mrbios]

...Warm,hot or basically most of the rest of the day after its been made good and hot, perhaps 2 - 2.5 seconds.

I would say this describes my 2005 GV's behavior. A lesson could be taken from Yamaha.  A friend had a Yamaha radian and still has a 1993 virago 1100cc and both start instantly at all times warm cold hot.  I suspect that the scooters engines need to have higher compression to make them start better - say above 180psi.  Heck my 19 year saturn wagon starts instantly even in cold rainy conditions even after not being driven for 10 days!

[ifican]

Thats just it, if it was a compression issue they are generally opposite. Worn rings for instance, very low compression when cold but once warm, metal expands and compression increases. But this behavior is 180 degrees out of phase of that. I have no explanation why compression (seems like but not sure its the issue) would be great cold and not so great warm but only directly related to starting. Running feels the same all the time.

[ifican]

Last and final update for me.

Never discount your battery if you have odd behavior that seems it could be electrical related, i dont care what your multimeter or tester says. Long story short, finally checked cell fluid levels and they were all low. Filled with distilled water and though everything worked just didnt work right. Voltage showed 12.5v +/- .1 and electronic tester showed good (kind they use at automotive shops). But things were just off, on a whim i purchased a new battery to test. New battery showed up at 13.15 volts and sits at that voltage all the time. Been a couple days now and things are what i would consider back to normal. First time ever for me across 10's of owned vehicles with lead acid batteries that anything like this has ever happened. Goes to show you can teach an old dog new tricks.

[mrbios]

Last and final update for me.

Never discount your battery...

I suspect.... that Kymco either used a starter for a smaller motor or used a starter that requires max voltage - ideally 12.6v+ in order to start right up.  A no start is the perfect invitation to visit your local dealer for service.  I say this because my battery is a sealed batter where you add the acid and hammer on the caps strip and it is only 1.5 years old and is getting a little "tired".  Keep in mind I'm in san diego - no cold winters and I ride all year an average of 5 days a week.  Volt meter shows 12.5v BUT if you turn the key on (head light on) etc the voltage drops to 12.3v if you crank a few seconds and stop voltage now reads 12.0v! which should be more than enough but lately - past 4 months or so I find myself cranking 6 seconds or having to pause and retry 2 or 3x before it starts. 

A good test (putting testers aside) - hook up jumper cables to a car or use a battery charger with "jump start" mode.  When I did this even on cold mornings ~40 degrees F each the the scooter started right up. 

Thanks for the update.

[ifican]

San Diego funny, thats where i am as well so know what you speak of well. My previous battery was same "sealed" type. Use a small screw driver and pull the plug you used to fill it, i guarantee most if not all your cells will be low. I refilled it and it would hold a charge for several days then start to act funny. Purchased a replacement super cheap online, it arrived in a few days and is a real sealed battery (no plugs), you can install it on its side if you wish. It came charged and sits comfortably a week without issue and fires right up when i go to turn it on no matter the temps outside. PM me if you want the site i used am Ill look it up.

[mrbios]

San Diego funny, thats where i am as well so know what you speak of well. My previous battery was same "sealed" type. Use a small screw driver and pull the plug you used to fill it, i guarantee most if not all your cells will be low. I refilled it and it would hold a charge for several days then start to act funny. Purchased a replacement super cheap online, it arrived in a few days and is a real sealed battery (no plugs), you can install it on its side if you wish. It came charged and sits comfortably a week without issue and fires right up when i go to turn it on no matter the temps outside. PM me if you want the site i used am Ill look it up.

Thanks for the information!  I will pry those "sealed type" flat caps off and check the water level.  I sent you a PM for the link to the battery online.  Like I said the current battery is an Interstate brand and cost $70! 

Update: I pried the cover off and it was dry but I was told that it is supposed to absorb the water like a sponge and be dry?

[mrbios]

... However hot start never really fires it just starts running. Really hard to explain but basically the starter spins up the motor (maybe 3 seconds) it never makes that initial fire im starting sounds. I can just tell its running so i let off the starter and its idling. ....never makes that initial fire pop like it does when its cold.

Recently, I had to do the same thing.  I kept spinning the starter even after the motor was running to keep it going so it wouldn't stall.  At first I didn't think my scoot ever needed to be started that way but I realized once in a while it does the same thing you described.  Now lately after dissembling, cleaning and greasing the clutch / drive belt assembly AND cleaning the wires that go to the spark plug and applying dielectric grease it is starting really well even when hot.