Linked brakes??

[Stig / Major Tom]

Going around a corner and hitting sand with the front brake activated is a huge nono. For that reason I don't think I'd like a linked brake for the rear brake lever.

For this reason - one should Never out-drive your eyeballs. And who brakes in corners?
("you're suddenly into sand? Just give her the beans and do a dirt track Steve McQueen!")
Then go back and pick up all your groceries when no body's looking.
Stig

[BettinANDlosing]

You cannot compare car brakes to motorcycle/ scooter brakes. It's a totally different ball game. On a motorcycle an avid ride SHOULD be able to modulate whatever combination of brakes are needed. Having the vehicle do that for you is not good IMHO. I like absolute control over what my bike is doing, I can choose if I want front brake, rear brake or any combination of the two.

[2wheelfun]

Stig Stig Stig, everyone isn't Mario Andretti on 2 wheels. Shame shame shame!

[klaviator]

For this reason - one should Never out-drive your eyeballs. And who brakes in corners?
("you're suddenly into sand? Just give her the beans and do a dirt track Steve McQueen!")
Then go back and pick up all your groceries when no body's looking.
Stig

I brake in corners when I want or need to.  Is there some reason I shouldn't?

It's a skill everyone who rides should have.

[klaviator]

I noted this for the 2015 Honda Forza....
"Front Brake / Single 256mm disc with twin-piston caliper with CBS (third front brake piston is activated upon application of rear brake)

Rear Brake / Single 240mm disc with single-piston caliper with CBS (one front brake piston is activated upon application of rear brake)"
Makes me think if Honda and Aprilia are using linked brakes -well,  they aren't exactly back-water companies when it comes to building scooters.
Thanks for your reply
Scoot safely
Stig

Honda and Aprilia have chosen to use linked brakes on SOME of their bikes.  They have made the decision to dumb down those bikes to make them safer for unskilled riders at the expense of making them less desirable for those riders who really know how to use their brakes.  That choice was most likely made by the marketing folks or lawyers not the engineers.

For those of you who have linked brakes, do you actually know how the ones on YOUR bike work?  Which lever actuates which brake?  How is the proportioning valve set up?  Is it a fixed ratio or variable depending on how much pressure you use.  Does it have a front brake delay?  Is the linking system inactive below certain speeds or pressure?  I doubt even 10% of the riders who own bikes with linked brakes could answer those questions.

[klaviator]

Here's one scenario where I was real glad not to have linked brakes.  I was competing in a Gymkhana on my Aprilia Sport City 250.  BTW, the triple discs on my Aprilia are outstanding.  I used just the rear brake to control my speed in the super tight corners.

[ophelia]

The Japanese manage just fine with their VFR800s and Silver Wings in Gymkhana from what I can tell. :-)

[2wheelfun]

We're beating up on Stig, ain't gonna happen. He's my scooter hero, done.

[ts1]

For those of you who have linked brakes, do you actually know how the ones on YOUR bike work?

Not in depth. And I don't even care!
I am just a common rider who knows, that a Xciting scooter is suited for tarmac and not for snow/ice or mud or sand etc.

But I know that most riders (not the encouraged like you, but most) have neither theoretical nor practical skills.
Many can't even brake properly in a straight line on dry tarmac.
That's why the European Union requires new motorcycles >125cc to have ABS or at least a linked brake (<=125cc).

I doubt even 10% of the riders who own bikes with linked brakes could answer those questions.

Same with every technical or physical item. Just to really understand "friction" requires a profound knowledge of quantum mechanics.
But as Bernt Spiegel (senior driving instructor and university prof) said: A child can ride his bicycle without any graduation in physics.

[klaviator]

We're beating up on Stig, ain't gonna happen. He's my scooter hero, done.

Not beating up on stig.  He asked this question and I'm giving him my answer.

[klaviator]

How do linked brakes work? Do any KYMCO scoots have them? Why, why not? Advantages? Disadvantages? The Honda Metropolitan has them. Why? I read that they insure the rear will lock first, no matter how the brakes are used in a panic stop. True? Sort of a poor man's ABS?
Stig

I think I answered some of these questions already.  As for insuring that the rear will lock up first, not so.  They normally route more braking power to the front brakes since that is what most people underuse.  However, Linked brakes are not all the same.  Some of the newer systems from BMW and Ducati work completely opposite from most of the older systems.  They allow independent use of the rear brake while routing some braking from the front lever to the rear brake.  I don't believe any scooters use this type of system.

[klaviator]

Not in depth. And I don't even care!
I am just a common rider who knows, that a Xciting scooter is suited for tarmac and not for snow/ice or mud or sand etc.

But I know that most riders (not the encouraged like you, but most) have neither theoretical nor practical skills.
Many can't even brake properly in a straight line on dry tarmac.
That's why the European Union requires new motorcycles >125cc to have ABS or at least a linked brake (<=125cc).Same with every technical or physical item. Just to really understand "friction" requires a profound knowledge of quantum mechanics.
But as Bernt Spiegel (senior driving instructor and university prof) said: A child can ride his bicycle without any graduation in physics.

This is sad but true.  However, if you want to get the most out of your linked brakes, you should have some idea how they work.  Unfortunately, it is pretty much impossible to really tell what your linked brakes are doing.  This is one of the reasons I dislike them.  With regular brakes, I can use just the rear brake and see how it works.  Then I can do the same with the front.  With linked brakes you never know how much braking is going to the front or rear brakes.  If you just want to squeeze the brakes without thinking about it, then linked brakes will not be bad for you.  That's who they are made for.

[Stig / Major Tom]

Never really understood why you don't brake in a corner while on
'forked" front  wheels - but is less of a risk if you are on a Vespa with that one-side mounted front wheel. I have read this in several places over the past few months.
Nevertheless, linked brakes are listed as though they were a bonus feature on some scoots.

But, while I seem to have everybodies attention - this would be a good time to revisit "The Myth Of Counter Steering".....
wait, wait, give me a minute to get some chips & dip.
OK. Have at it!
  Just joking....
All of the replies here have been appreciated - and some have even been educational!
(so, the next time I see a sand pile coming at me in a corner - I will give it the beans and lean over and keep staring at my rear tire in order to see what happens when I play with each brake lever!)

Speed gets a lot of folks in trouble.....I think all the rest of the trouble comes at us on 4 wheels.
Hopefully, darn few of us are at risk because of poor maintenance of our scoots.
Stig

[Porkie]

Every MC and Scooter I've owned over the past 30 years had conventional non-linked brakes until I bought a Honda Big Ruckus. The execution of the linked brakes on that Scooter is so transparent I didn't know there was a problem until I started reading the Battlescooter section on ADV.
Only had one panic stop on that Scooter, braked with more G-force than any experienced in the past, missed the stop sign runner, stopped straight and short.
So I did a little research on linked brakes.
Moto Guzzi installed the first linked (integrated) braking system on their Motorcycles in 1975. Testing showed that stopping distances were shorter with the linked system than with the same motorcycle fitted with conventional brakes. At the time, linked brakes were considered a major innovation in motorcycle braking technology.
http://books.google.com/books?id=wso...brakes&f=false
Honda apparently thought enough of that idea to fit linked brakes on the 1983 GoldWing. Since then every Honda GoldWing has been fitted with some form of linked brakes.
A number of other major and minor MC and Scooter Manufacturers have since fitted their products with some form of linked brakes. These folks are in business to sell product and make money. Here are some Italian brands:
http://motorcycle.pikimal.com/top/10...d-brake-system
Here is a very basic explanation of how linked brakes work:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_braking_system
Don't know who this fellow is but he certainly has written an interesting article explaining Motorcycle braking systems as used in real world situations:
http://old.nabble.com/The-Low-Down-o...-p4868174.html
So here we are 37 years later with millions of MC's and Scooters manufactured by a number of different brands equipped with some form of linked brakes.
Apparently the NHTSA has noticed this development:
http://www.nhtsa.gov/people/injury/p...ycle45-46.html
Under very limited circumstances (loose gravel/wet grass/low speeds) are linked brakes known to not work as well as conventional brakes. I try to ride accordingly and that problem hasn't presented itself often enough to bother.
Valentino Rossi and Mat Mladin would be slower with linked brakes; they are professional racers riding on optimal machinery in a closed environment. I just want to safely ride to work or for relaxation in the evening or on weekends.
Linked brakes work pretty well on MC's and Scooters. 

 http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&sqi=2&ved=0CCcQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FCombined_braking_system&ei=LSGGU4nPGdKbyASAoILAAw&usg=AFQjCNGCBGX1EKXjyoLf3i2SNX1zjXtycQ&sig2=n7joIUv3m4QiquU6-_en9w&bvm=bv.67720277,d.b2U

Not my words but from another M/C site.   


Sam:)

[klaviator]

Never really understood why you don't brake in a corner while on
'forked" front  wheels - but is less of a risk if you are on a Vespa with that one-side mounted front wheel. I have read this in several places over the past few months.  This is pure myth.  There is no problem braking in a curve IF DONE CORRECTLY

Nevertheless, linked brakes are listed as though they were a bonus feature on some scoots.  Of course any manufacturer who offers it will list it as a great feature

But, while I seem to have everybodies attention - this would be a good time to revisit "The Myth Of Counter Steering".....
wait, wait, give me a minute to get some chips & dip.
OK. Have at it!
  Just joking....
All of the replies here have been appreciated - and some have even been educational!
(so, the next time I see a sand pile coming at me in a corner - I will give it the beans and lean over and keep staring at my rear tire in order to see what happens when I play with each brake lever!)

Speed gets a lot of folks in trouble.....I think all the rest of the trouble comes at us on 4 wheels.
Hopefully, darn few of us are at risk because of poor maintenance of our scoots.
Stig

Regardless of whether you like or dislike linked brakes, you will be safer if you know how to properly use your brakes.  Linked brake systems vary greatly so it would be a good idea to learn how your system works and what hazards it could have as well as how it affects your braking.