Elec / Starter Issues

[pedrazo]

Hi all, been trying to get to the bottom of some electrical / starter issues and am stumped.

The main symptom right now is that the bike seems to struggle to turn the starter motor. It will hesitate before turning, sometimes with a little "charging up"-type electrical whine, with a resulting large voltage drop at the battery. This is leading (I think) to bad batteries - I've now replaced multiple over the last few months. It will turn after this struggle and and it will start, especially with a jump pack. It also seems sporadic and seems to crank easily sometimes too. And once running it operates just fine.

Initial thought of course is "bad battery"; a new battery does help but then the bike kills it.

What I've replaced so far:

• Starter motor, thinking that might somehow be a cause of excessive draw
• Starter solenoid, thinking that it might not be engaging correctly
• Regulator/rectifier: the battery was measuring <13V while running and thus not charging. I thought this may be part of the dead battery issue but seems like it may be unrelated. Battery now measures between 13 and 13.5 when revving
• Starter clutch, due to a likely unrelated problem discussed in another thread where starter clutch was clicking / skipping / scraping / not engaging
• Stator, replaced along with starter clutch to try to fix aformentioned low voltage at battery. In any case it now sends 30-40 volts AC to the regulator as it revs
• Battery, far too many times

Some remaining hypotheses:

• Bad starter system ground; however motor and solenoid bolt both show same voltage to ground as battery, ground point in frame seems fine and I added some dielectric grease just in case
• Bad ground elsewhere? Ignition coil shows 0.1V drop vs. battery ground but it runs fine. Would one of these ancillary grounds lead to a hard start?
• Kickstart interfering. This is an interesting one. I haven't opened up the kickstart yet but it does not function. It doesn't seem to engage nor spring back to position. Could something here interfere / add friction to make it more difficult for the starter motor to function?
• Valves out of spec; however I had thought this would lead to lots of cranking and not hard cranking
• Too much compression?
• Bad CDI?
• Cold weather exacerbating things?

I had also seen references to an S200 recall for electrical issues but can't find details and am not sure if it might be related.

For my next steps I was planning to 1) pull the spark plug to see if it cranks without the hesitation and 2) open up the kickstarter to see if something is engaging there. But do you all have any other thoughts? I'm even less electrically-inclined than I am mechanically-inclined but have now had this bike apart more times than I can count trying to figure this one out. Thank you!

[Ruffus]

@pedrazo welcome here within this hive!

For my next steps I was planning to
1) pull the spark plug to see if it cranks without the hesitation and
2) open up the kickstarter to see if something is engaging there. But do you all have any other thoughts? I'm even less electrically-inclined than I am mechanically-inclined but have now had this bike apart more times than I can count trying to figure this one out. Thank you!

To 1: good idea to check how your motor cranks without plugs
To 2: if the kickstart would be engaged, there would be a rattling/ grinding noise to be heard.
BUT, to eliminate this as a culprit take off your CVT cover and have a look into.
Try to start without it, let's see.

Go direct with small jump cables from an external battery direct on your starters plus and minus. How is it behaving?

Try to put an additional cable from  battery minus to your starters minus/ ground. Dielectric grease helps only when the ground parts are mechanically clean/ blank and not corroded.
Also within one of your power cables might be corrosion, therefore direct.

Pls see this link, maybe some idea comes up.
https://www.kymcoforum.com/index.php?topic=31637.0

With starter solenoid you mean this relais on the scoots upper frame with a fat red and black cable?
If this clicks only, then too less energy is coming even a new battery is installed. Cables corroded or not tightly fixed.
Pls give us a feedback to learn.

[Iahawk]

I believe Ruffus has shared pictures before of a cable that appears perfectly fine from the outside but is really a corroded pile of powder inside the sheathing. With all the parts that have been replaced this seems like a great place to look.

[pedrazo]

Thank you Ruffus and IAHawk! This forum really is a wealth of knowledge.

First off - yes by solenoid I was referring to the starter relay (starboard side of bike with the two bolts and fat cables).

Last year I did have a similar problem to the thread you posted, where the rear ground was poorly connected. Power would intermittently flow to the starter but fixed that by locking down with a new bolt. That ground point shows same voltage as the battery so I think it's OK.

Before it got dark tonight I took off the left crankcase cover and though the kickstart parts are worn and rusted a bit, that's not the issue. The starter motor still struggles to turn just the same with the cover and kickstart apparatus off the bike.

I think I may be on to something though: the variator is quite difficult to turn by hand and rotates with uneven difficulty. It will be very difficult to turn, but after you force through that difficult point, it becomes easy to turn. It's then easy for ~2 revolutions before it reaches the difficult spot again. So that is why the starter motor is sometimes able to spin relatively freely, but then other times hesitates and uses a lot of juice to crank.

Now am I just describing powering through the compression stroke and it in fact should be this difficult, and we're back to an electrical issue where there's not enough power flowing to crank it? I didn't have a chance to hit the starter with the sparkplug out but can test that tomorrow. I also just got some feeler gauges in the mail and can try out adjusting the valves if that might be the culprit - I don't fully understand this stuff but would a very tight intake or exhaust valve make it difficult to turn?

[Iahawk]

pedrazo, I think you're describing just what you said..you're feeling the 4 stroke motor go through each stroke, with the compression stroke being the hardest to push through. If you try it without the spark plug it should feel different.

Another random thought...I had (have) a pretty severe parasitic draw on my S200. It killed a couple of batteries far too quickly until I figured it out. Could it be that you also have a stronger parasitic draw that is affecting your battery more than you think?

https://www.wikihow.com/Find-a-Parasitic-Battery-Drain

(my draw was traced to my lighting control module. I replaced it with a new Kymco part and the draw continued...so I just disconnect my negative battery cable between rides. takes about 10 seconds and lets my battery live a nice, long life)

[Ruffus]

Iahawk might be on the right track with this parasitic draw.
Pls check this out with a multimeter between your battery either plus or minus cable.
IF there current flows, even ignition and key is off, then we got to find the culprit.

Do NOT trust your measures when it shows you a certain or same voltage at your battery and the other end of a cable. Does not say anything about this cables capacity under power to be delivered to your starter motor. Could be rotten inside.

[pedrazo]

Well it's certainly doing a lot better today. Not sure if it's 100% fixed but it's much better than before, at least for now.

I did previously think it might be parasitic draw so I installed a quick disconnect last year. Didn't seem to help things though as the draw seemed to be happening during the start. In addition to that, though not 100% sure I'm measuring right, my meter shows 0.000 amps DC when I connect it between the negative battery cable and negative battery terminal.

Here's a quick rundown of what I did today or can skip to the end for the conclusion:

• Pulled the sparkplug cap, starter spins with same hesitation and difficulty.
• Pulled the sparkplug and as expected it the starter motor spins a lot easier Looked at the sparkplug at saw that it was a CR7HSA (emphasis on the R), got real excited thinking that as a resistor plug maybe that resistor limits spark?! Had a C7HSA on hand, swapped it in, and then read that they both have the same specs and performance and the resistor just extra-isolates interference or something. In any case have a brand new spark plug now.
• Pulled off the cover to check the valves. Intake valve seemed within spec, exhaust valve was very tight. Essentially no clearance. Adjusted that to spec 0.12MM.

Battery was low after the prior start attempts so I charged it up. Hooked it back up and the bike starts right up. More importantly, it now shows just under 14V at idle (vs. the prior ~13V at idle, 13.5V while revving). Seems to run and idle better too.

Haven't yet taken it for a ride but will test it out on the way to work tomorrow. Still TBD if the battery drains or it again requires repeated hard cranks to start. But as of right now it starts on the first crank, with a little bit of work, and runs strongly with good voltage.

Still not sure how the above valve adjustment and newer spark plug would affect output voltage though.

[Ruffus]

Had an electrical issue on a 200i recently

Pls see this link, maybe there is your guzzler?
https://www.kymcoforum.com/index.php?topic=31878.msg223564#msg223564

If it improves starting and you have now higher voltage, might have been a now better ground or sparkplug cap tighter, or or...
Pls give us a feedback to learn from.

[pedrazo]

Hi all - not too much to update here:

• I added an extra ground from one of the two starter motor bolts direct to the battery but it didn't seem to do much. Thus I think I can conclude that my starter motor >> engine >> frame >> negative battery ground route is probably OK.
• I replaced the starter motor power cable with a new cable, but that also didn't seem to improve things. Switched it back to the original cable.
• Looked at the stator >> regulator connector (per your link) but that looked OK.
• I removed my battery disconnect to instead connect the ground directly to the battery terminal and that might have improved things a little? But tough to tell. It was a $10 motorcycle disconnect rated at 80 amps, is that too low?

At this point I'm just wondering if it's all in my head. How much hesitation is normal for a starter to power through the compression stroke? There's also sometimes a high pitched whine during that hesitation, almost like a capacitor charging up. Is that normal as well?

Alternatively it may have just been poor starting due to the out-of-spec valves, which would drain the battery (how many start attempts do you all get out of a new, charged battery before it's dead?), which then wouldn't recharge because of the bad regulator rectifier.

In any case will recharge the battery fully on the tender and ride for the next week or so and see how things go.

[Ruffus]

@pedrazo, ok, if this overall measures brought an improvement, it's fine. This circuit-breaker you took out  (80 amps) was a suspect to me.
This switch might survive a while then burn out and fail or weakens. I would take for 12V a 200/500 amps breaker to be on the safe side.
(if within the starting circuit)

- when starting, no hesitation (battery healthy and charged) should appear
- whining noise is usually caused by a dying starter motor bearing (brass)
- 10 start attempts should be possible (5secs each)

Pls see link....
https://www.kymcoforum.com/index.php?topic=30827.msg216053#msg216053

With all voltages (battery, regulator to battery, AC from alternator) within reasonable areas, then it should crank, run and charge as supposed to be.
Give us an update to learn.