Author Topic: plug chop, advice on reading.  (Read 5340 times)

zombie

  • You never know do ya!
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13870
  • Close enough to get the idea!
    • View Profile
Re: plug chop, advice on reading.
« Reply #15 on: May 29, 2012, 10:22:03 PM »
For 30.00 bucks it fits the bill.
 I'm not planing on beating this build, and an egt is just what I needed. I have an MSD 4217 on the way, and I could NEVER get the right Ign curve without an EGT. Thank You!
"They have nothing in their whole imperial arsenal that can break the spirit of one Irishman who doesn't want to be broken."   Bobby Sands...

streido

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3072
  • I view speed limits as guidelines rather than laws
    • View Profile
Re: plug chop, advice on reading.
« Reply #16 on: May 29, 2012, 10:50:35 PM »
That looks a hell of a lot easier and more acurate than doing the plug chops. Will take a note of it and prob get one soon i think, for the sake o a few £'s its well worth it. Prob save that on new plugs for chops over time anyway.

Thanks for the info. Do you know if they come with instructions? Is it quite simple to work out how to use properly?
Chaos is my co-pilot.

zombie

  • You never know do ya!
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13870
  • Close enough to get the idea!
    • View Profile
Re: plug chop, advice on reading.
« Reply #17 on: May 30, 2012, 07:02:58 AM »
It will run the coffee maker if you ask it to.  Then it puts the lotion in the basket...
I imagine it's on or off. Maybe a peak hold feature? Plug, and play.
"They have nothing in their whole imperial arsenal that can break the spirit of one Irishman who doesn't want to be broken."   Bobby Sands...

streido

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3072
  • I view speed limits as guidelines rather than laws
    • View Profile
Re: plug chop, advice on reading.
« Reply #18 on: May 30, 2012, 08:36:18 AM »
So how would you know if the reading you get is the correct reading and the scoots set as it should be? Or am i just sounding like a total noob here?
Chaos is my co-pilot.

zombie

  • You never know do ya!
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13870
  • Close enough to get the idea!
    • View Profile
Re: plug chop, advice on reading.
« Reply #19 on: May 30, 2012, 09:21:41 AM »
The exact number it reads is really irrelevant for the most part. It's the changes in temp. that matter. I think my melting pistons is related to the timing curve I asked Suitai to program in the CDI. By retarding some of the advance it is possible to move the heat into the pipe, and out of the cylinder. The important factor is the read time. Real time is crucial. By comparing rpm/temp a proper Ign curve can be built just for that set up. The HUGE side bonus is it dials in jetting exactly. You want a smooth climb in temps. with no peaks/valleys.
All that from a 30.00 tool.
"They have nothing in their whole imperial arsenal that can break the spirit of one Irishman who doesn't want to be broken."   Bobby Sands...

Vivo

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4980
    • View Profile
Re: plug chop, advice on reading.
« Reply #20 on: May 30, 2012, 09:33:03 AM »
There's no standard reading for EGT. You have to incorporate this with your plug chop reading + egt to create a baseline. Get the proper reading on plugs then see what the egt is. Then that is your egt. You can start from there. You will know in the future if there is a problem if your set egt baseline reading is off. Different probe locations will even give you different readings.




zombie

  • You never know do ya!
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13870
  • Close enough to get the idea!
    • View Profile
Re: plug chop, advice on reading.
« Reply #21 on: May 30, 2012, 09:36:26 AM »
It is the best tool in my opinion for setting it up, as well as monitoring the engine.
"They have nothing in their whole imperial arsenal that can break the spirit of one Irishman who doesn't want to be broken."   Bobby Sands...

LoveMyKymco

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 491
    • View Profile
Re: plug chop, advice on reading.
« Reply #22 on: May 30, 2012, 02:37:40 PM »
If you hit 1200+ degrees its too lean, youre running 400- its too rich, you can also be over rich and cause EGT temps to rise because of afterburn effect, but if you cant figure out youre that rich you shouldnt be working on it. The EGT is used to tune your carb to your pipe (Youre powerband) Close concept as a CHT. Only real difference its instantaneous of whats going on. Once you use it you will see very quickly whats right and whats not. It will let you know if your pilot isnt right very quickly.
My suggestion is if you dont have a lot of money and you cant read a plug chop, EGT, or CHT you probably shouldnt tune your own 2 stroke until you read more into it.

http://twostrokemotocross.com/2009/12/carburetor-theory-and-tuning/

Best book in the world to read for new riders, and old. And its free, A must have for all 2t builders.
http://edj.net/2stroke/jennings/2stroketunershandbook.pdf
« Last Edit: May 30, 2012, 02:40:01 PM by LoveMyKymco »
My 82 mph Killer Full MHR zx50 build (now 91 mph gps verified)
http://www.kymcoforum.com/index.php?topic=7795.0
My Fabrizi/MHR "can it cost anymore?" build
http://www.kymcoforum.com/index.php?topic=12146.0;topicseen

streido

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3072
  • I view speed limits as guidelines rather than laws
    • View Profile
Re: plug chop, advice on reading.
« Reply #23 on: May 30, 2012, 02:51:15 PM »
My Kymco is 4t LMK not 2t. Im pretty ok with tuning the Kymco, learned a lot over the last yr or so and do all my own work, repairs and servicing on it. I kinda got a good feel for it now and know from how it rides if its not right. Still learning new things every day tho, are'nt we all?  :)

My Kymco's running great right now and is set almost perfect so if i was to take some readings at this stage i could then use them as a reference point in the future, if i have understood how you say its meant to be used?

I do own a 2t Vespa tho so im thinking it may be useful to get one and learn more about it as im sure i would use it once i start tuning that. I just need to make sure im clued up how it all works before i try use it to tune.
Chaos is my co-pilot.

LoveMyKymco

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 491
    • View Profile
Re: plug chop, advice on reading.
« Reply #24 on: May 30, 2012, 02:52:09 PM »
Some of my old posts from another site I use to regulate. Unfortunately its geared more towards 2t. 4T is easier actually.

Generally, when in-cylinder temperatures increase, so do exhaust port temperatures. The exceptions to this are caused by things like having a lot of blowthrough at TDC following the exhaust stroke, where you get a lot of fresh air flowing through the top of the cylinder and straight out of the exhaust port. This obviously has a cooling effect on the gases being scavenged, and is most pronounced in 4-strokes when using a wide-overlap camshaft (often used specifically for this purpose), and in 2-strokes where the combustion system geometry has been designed to optimise scavenging.

Now, the effect of mixture on EGT:

With a very rich mixture, exhaust gas temperatures will be low. This is down to a number of factors, but the absence of sufficient air for complete combustion is the main factor. The flame front simply dies out. Also, the excess fuel has a high specific heat capacity, and is able to 'mop up' further heat, particularly in something like a Diesel engine where there are still fuel droplets present (the evaporation of these droplets requires energy input, thus lowering the surrounding temperatures). CO rather than CO2 is produced due to the partial oxidation of carbon in an oxygen deficient environment. This CO is then further oxidised to CO2 later on in the combustion process (say, when both valves are open, and there's a sudden influx of fresh oxygen). This resulting oxidation of CO to CO2 requires energy input, so temperatures are again reduced.

Moving on to leaner mixtures, more air is available to sustain a more complete combustion, and more fuel is burned, and temperatures rise, to a peak, when all the fuel is burned (obviously all the chemical energy held within is released as heat). The effects mentioned previously decrease, particularly as the oxidation of carbon is complete. Leaner still, there's excess air, which serves to dilute the hot combustion gases, and temperatures again start to decrease.

This is all quite high-level; there's rather a lot more with regard to heat release rates.


As for why detonation generally only takes out one cylinder:
The line between detonation and no detonation is extremely fine. It can take just a few degrees extra in cylinder temperatures, or a few tenths of a degree crank angle too advanced (for spark/injection) to cause detonation. As a result of cooling channel designs, and slight imbalances of flow between different inlet tracts, (not to mention different AFRs cylinder-to-cylinder caused by tolerances on the carburettors), all the cylinders very rarely operate at exactly the same timing/mixture/temperature. If you have a bad detonation, and take off the top of the piston on one cylinder, your engine will probably catastrophically fail pretty quickly on one cylinder before the others have even had chance.

As for what EGTs would do to warn you of detonation, well, I wouldn't rely on using them as an indicator. Firstly check your mixture. Secondly make sure you're not running at some silly advance anyway, and thirdly listen out for detonation. If you've set the engine up properly in the first place then there's no reason for it to start detonating during use. However, whilst leaning out during setting your engine up (and we're talking sensible AFRs here), you'll notice the exhaust temperatures rise, peak, and then start to fall. As you said, when they're falling, there's a good chance your detonating. This is because the shock wave caused by the detonation breaks up the boundary layer of relatively stagnant mixture which normally 'lines' the cylinder walls. As a result, the thermal transfer between the combustion gas and the (normally rather cool) cylinder walls (and by proxy, piston) rocket, until you start siezing little chunks of piston land to the bores and ripping them off. The exhaust gas temperature decreases when detonation occurs because some of the heat which usually goes out of the exhaust ports goes straight into the cylinder walls. So it's important to distinguish between exhaust gas temperatures (which essentially indicate mixture; the peak temperature is at stoichiometric) and 'general engine temperatures' (coolant and oil) which are drastically affected by any changes in friction between the piston and bore/liner.


Pre-ignition is when combustion (the rapid progression of a flame front through the end gas) occurs before (in time) the spark. This can be due to a number of factors, generally by 'surface ignition' where the charge is ignited by a hot surface (often a hot valve, the spark plug, or a hot spot on the bore or head, and occasionally by a glowing carbon deposit somewhere in the chamber). Note that surface ignition can also occur after the spark event; this is known (surprisingly enough) as post-ignition.

Knock (or detonation) is spontaneous combustion of some of the charge ahead of (in distance from the spark plug) the advancing flame front. (I'm assuming here that you understand (or can imagine) how a flame front propagates from the area around the spark plug, if not please shout!). As this flame front propagates, the gas which has not yet been ignited, is compressed, and as a result its temperature and density increase. If the conditions (temperature, pressure, density) of this unburned portion of mixtue are right for combustion, then ignition will occur. This resulting combustion advances MUCH (5 to 25 times) faster than the 'normal' flame front, and is sometimes severe enough to cause catastrophic failure (as I described earlier). This rapid combustion causes a high-pressure shock wave which gives knock its characteristic (onomatopoeaic!) sound. Knock occurs when this secondary, spontaneous ignition occurs before the flame front has reached it. In effect, there's a race between the normal flame front (propagating from the spark), and any auto-ignited areas of charge.

So, surface ignition (usually in the form of pre-ignition) can cause knock, by causing an abnormal combustion event ahead of the flame front. If the spark has already occured, and a normal combustion event taken place, but knocking occurs, this is known as spark knock, i.e. it has not been caused by surface ignition.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2012, 02:53:48 PM by LoveMyKymco »
My 82 mph Killer Full MHR zx50 build (now 91 mph gps verified)
http://www.kymcoforum.com/index.php?topic=7795.0
My Fabrizi/MHR "can it cost anymore?" build
http://www.kymcoforum.com/index.php?topic=12146.0;topicseen

zombie

  • You never know do ya!
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13870
  • Close enough to get the idea!
    • View Profile
Re: plug chop, advice on reading.
« Reply #25 on: May 31, 2012, 01:59:13 AM »
There is blood running out of my eyes. Lots O big wurds in them.
"They have nothing in their whole imperial arsenal that can break the spirit of one Irishman who doesn't want to be broken."   Bobby Sands...

Vivo

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4980
    • View Profile
Re: plug chop, advice on reading.
« Reply #26 on: May 31, 2012, 02:21:35 AM »
My suggestion is if you dont have a lot of money and you cant read a plug chop, EGT, or CHT you probably shouldnt tune your own 2 stroke until you read more into it.

Right you are Sir!  and same with cars! tuning takes lots of time and money.  That's why I love old-school-hot-rod-tinkering!   No BBK, EGT, CHT, pork chop, and lots of O's. Just pure engine swap! Swap that 50cc with a 200... twist and go!


zombie

  • You never know do ya!
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13870
  • Close enough to get the idea!
    • View Profile
Re: plug chop, advice on reading.
« Reply #27 on: May 31, 2012, 04:57:06 AM »
But this is fun.
"They have nothing in their whole imperial arsenal that can break the spirit of one Irishman who doesn't want to be broken."   Bobby Sands...

zombie

  • You never know do ya!
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13870
  • Close enough to get the idea!
    • View Profile
Re: plug chop, advice on reading.
« Reply #28 on: May 31, 2012, 04:58:46 AM »
"They have nothing in their whole imperial arsenal that can break the spirit of one Irishman who doesn't want to be broken."   Bobby Sands...

zombie

  • You never know do ya!
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13870
  • Close enough to get the idea!
    • View Profile
"They have nothing in their whole imperial arsenal that can break the spirit of one Irishman who doesn't want to be broken."   Bobby Sands...

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function split()