Author Topic: Torque springys  (Read 4876 times)

245luigi

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Torque springys
« on: March 21, 2014, 07:52:47 PM »
I currently have the Naraku 1500 rpm torque/contra spring seen below.
http://www.racingplanetusa.com/compression-torque-spring-naraku-1500-sport-p-7150-1.html?sessID=d7dc68bff50b9693b58ebbfda30471e1#.UyyWg8X7Lco

I am going to install the Malossi upgear kit as the BBK has this engine screaming at high rpms when at low speeds.
http://www.racingplanetusa.com/transmission-gear-malossi-1544-kymco-horiz-p-226-1.html?cPath=2_26378_26382&sessID=d7dc68bff50b9693b58ebbfda30471e1#.UyyXg8X7Lco

In anticipation of CVT changes I would like to pick up the next heaviest torque/contra spring. That would be the 2000 rpm spring. RPUSA is out of stock at the moment. The other companies (in stock) torque springs are rated by percents like the Malossi and Top Gear Racing ones. So in the percents which spring would be equivalent to the 2000 rpm spring of Naraku? Im also on stock fly springs. I am getting the Malossi 3 pk of various weight fly springs as well.

 These springs in theory fit my bike.
http://www.racingplanetusa.com/transmission-parts-c-2_26378_26382-1.html?shop_ID=1&sessID=d7dc68bff50b9693b58ebbfda30471e1
Currently:
2012 Kymco Like70
72cc Malossi BBK
Dell'Orto PHBG 19 AS Carb
52 Pilot Jet
92 Main Jet
W7 Needle, 40 Slide
2T atomizer + bushing
Tecnigas Triops
Malossi Torque Driver

KymcoRockr

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Re: Torque springys
« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2014, 01:21:43 PM »
Is that the same rear end gear set as this one?

http://scooterpartsco.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=170_180&products_id=1259

How much faster does it make the bike go and do you get to the rev limiter?
Been riding for a very long time.
AK550
Yager 200

245luigi

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Re: Torque springys
« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2014, 01:28:10 PM »
Yes they are the same springs. My bike doesnt have a rev limiter. The parts are in the mail so I dont know anything yet!
Currently:
2012 Kymco Like70
72cc Malossi BBK
Dell'Orto PHBG 19 AS Carb
52 Pilot Jet
92 Main Jet
W7 Needle, 40 Slide
2T atomizer + bushing
Tecnigas Triops
Malossi Torque Driver

zombie

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Re: Torque springys
« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2014, 06:34:56 PM »
Hey Luigi,
Start off by opening a commercial account w/ RP. 245Luigi Racing will do.

Get these parts...

Scooter Parts | Racing Planet USA | variator kit Top Racing SV1 speed for Kymco, SYM horiz., 139QMBQMA | Transmission Parts | Jet 50 EVO | SYM (Sanyang)
http://www.racingplanetusa.com/variator-racing-speed-kymco-horiz-139qmbqma-p-138-1.html?cPath=2_26378_26382&sessID=d7dc68bff50b9693b58ebbfda30471e1#.U010JuZ_7IY


Scooter Parts | Racing Planet USA | clutch Top Racing 107mm | Transmission Parts | Stalker 50 DT Naked ZAPC40102 | Gilera
http://www.racingplanetusa.com/clutch-racing-107mm-p-186-1.html?cPath=2_622_26516&sessID=d7dc68bff50b9693b58ebbfda30471e1#.U013RuZ_7IY

Scooter Parts | Racing Planet USA | clutch spring kit Top Racing for original clutches | Transmission Parts | Stalker 50 DT Naked ZAPC40102 | Gilera
http://www.racingplanetusa.com/clutch-spring-racing-original-clutches-p-190-1.html?cPath=2_622_26516&sessID=d7dc68bff50b9693b58ebbfda30471e1#.U016ZeZ_7IY

Get either the red or the blue... Blue is better if you are over 200 lbs. Red is good up to 200 lbs
Scooter Parts | Racing Planet USA | torque spring Top Racing different categories | Transmission Parts | Stalker 50 DT Naked ZAPC40102 | Gilera
http://www.racingplanetusa.com/torque-spring-racing-different-categories-p-2590-1.html?cPath=2_622_26516&sessID=d7dc68bff50b9693b58ebbfda30471e1#.U0130uZ_7IY

Scooter Parts | Racing Planet USA | variator control shims Naraku speed-up kit for GY6 Kymco 50 | Transmission Parts | Jet 50 EVO | SYM (Sanyang)
http://www.racingplanetusa.com/variator-control-shims-naraku-speedup-kymco-p-21863-1.html?cPath=2_622_26516&sessID=d7dc68bff50b9693b58ebbfda30471e1#.U014h-Z_7IY

Scooter Parts | Racing Planet USA | clutch bell Naraku R-Vent 107mm for Piaggio, Gilera, Peugeot, Kymco, SYM, GY6 | Transmission Parts | Stalker 50 DT Naked ZAP...
http://www.racingplanetusa.com/clutch-bell-naraku-rvent-107mm-piaggio-gilera-peugeot-kymco-p-6672-1.html?cPath=2_622_26516&sessID=d7dc68bff50b9693b58ebbfda30471e1#.U015_uZ_7IY

The final thing may be a roller tuning set to dial in the roller weight. My guess would be between 3.5, and 5.5 gr

Use the OEM Bando belt, and this set up is bullet proof. The only better set up is w/ a Stage 6 RT II but it will cost.

Buy the stuff in stages to help keep the $$$ down if you need. Start w/ the variator/belt. When you add the clutch kit you WILL need to swap rollers again.

Seriously... Set up a wholesale account w/ them. Any company name will do. If they ask (doubt they will) for a Tax ID number just tell them you are paying the tax w/ every order. It will save you enough to make the Vario/rollers/belt free!
"They have nothing in their whole imperial arsenal that can break the spirit of one Irishman who doesn't want to be broken."   Bobby Sands...

245luigi

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Re: Torque springys
« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2014, 11:14:02 AM »
Thanks for the input zombie but parts are already on the way!

I got a 2000 rpm contra spring from partsforscooters

The Malossi 15/44 gear kit

Malossi variator and clutch spring kit, RPUSA called me up and told me the Polini vari was out of stock.

I see you were clutch heavy on the parts up to, care to drop some knowledge?
Currently:
2012 Kymco Like70
72cc Malossi BBK
Dell'Orto PHBG 19 AS Carb
52 Pilot Jet
92 Main Jet
W7 Needle, 40 Slide
2T atomizer + bushing
Tecnigas Triops
Malossi Torque Driver

zombie

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Re: Torque springys
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2014, 04:09:43 AM »
I found the clutch is actually more important than the vario. You wont see any MPH gains so it stays in the shadows. What you will see is the ability to hold the engine like a stretching rubber band, and release it at is strongest point.
 It all begins with the shoes, and the bell. You must have a CNC cut bell to assure it is true, and aluminium is the best dissipater of heat. Semi Metallic shoes will GRAb when they are supposed to, and will not slip so they are also mandatory in my book.
Adjust-ability is the real key. Once your rollers are set you want the engine to spin freely untill it makes it's MAX power. Usually 7-9k on OEM type kits, and 9-12 k on race kits. You shouldn't even move untill this power is in. Thats where the fly spring work. Find the springs that hold the shoes in till you get to the power band.

Once you feel the shoes grabbing they should LOCK. If they dont... This is the job of the weights/spring retainer settings/or spring cams. Adjust these settings to allow the shoes to fly out with momentum
, and the clutch will lock.

When you start to roll you will feel when the rear pulley opens. When it is set w/ the wrong contra spring (too soft) the rpm will drop, and it will feel like a shift point.
When it is right the rpm will be steady right up to full throttle.
If it too stiff the bike will never get to top speed, and will rev like a demon

Even a stock scoot can benefit in drive-ability, take off, 0-whatever mph will be faster, and up hill lag will be cut to a minimum. Almost ANY vario will do its job. It holds rollers. Thats all.
The clutch delivers the power, and determines the performance of the engine. The more adjust-ability the clutch has is the key to eliminating all the variables between all our bikes, and rider weights.

Given a choice between a Polini jug kit, and a stage6 RtII clutch... I'd take the clutch. Every time.
There are lots of ways to make power but only one way to deliver it. 
"They have nothing in their whole imperial arsenal that can break the spirit of one Irishman who doesn't want to be broken."   Bobby Sands...

245luigi

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Re: Torque springys
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2014, 01:31:54 PM »
Wow thank you that was really informative. The only part Im unsure about is:

"Once you feel the shoes grabbing they should LOCK. If they dont... This is the job of the weights/spring retainer settings/or spring cams. Adjust these settings to allow the shoes to fly out with momentum
, and the clutch will lock."

Are the weights/spring retainer settings/or spring cams things that would be on a stock clutch or only on aftermarket?
Currently:
2012 Kymco Like70
72cc Malossi BBK
Dell'Orto PHBG 19 AS Carb
52 Pilot Jet
92 Main Jet
W7 Needle, 40 Slide
2T atomizer + bushing
Tecnigas Triops
Malossi Torque Driver

zombie

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Re: Torque springys
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2014, 05:12:16 PM »
Only after market.  Look at these...

CVT: Stage6 Clutch Set Up G-Force Powersports Inc. Royal Palm Beach, FL 800-658-1843
http://www.g-forcepowersports.com/service-description.htm?id=5141&name=cvt-stage6-clutch-set-up

Clutch Stage6 Torque Control MKII (107mm) | Scootertuning-parts from scooter-attack
https://www.scooter-attack.com/shop/#!/en/Clutches/Midrace-High-End/S65014012-Clutch-Stage6-Torque-Control-MKII-107mm.html

Pedparts UK | Clutch Bell Stage6 R/T 107mm- Aerox (433g version)
http://www.pedparts.co.uk/product/529/clutch-bell-stage6-rt-107mm-aerox-433g-version

STAGE6 Tuning tutorial #01 - Stage6 clutch & clutch bell - YouTube


OEM clutches only have interchangeable springs, and no way to control loading. They also have organic shoes that slip all the time by design. That's why all stock scooters sound like cry baby chain saws Waaaa waa waaaa wa. A good clutch will make it a big dog WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA. One tone, and steady rpm from dead stop to top speed

"They have nothing in their whole imperial arsenal that can break the spirit of one Irishman who doesn't want to be broken."   Bobby Sands...

245luigi

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Re: Torque springys
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2014, 05:39:28 PM »
OEM clutches only have interchangeable springs, and no way to control loading. They also have organic shoes that slip all the time by design. That's why all stock scooters sound like cry baby chain saws Waaaa waa waaaa wa. A good clutch will make it a big dog WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA. One tone, and steady rpm from dead stop to top speed

Sold!  ;D
Currently:
2012 Kymco Like70
72cc Malossi BBK
Dell'Orto PHBG 19 AS Carb
52 Pilot Jet
92 Main Jet
W7 Needle, 40 Slide
2T atomizer + bushing
Tecnigas Triops
Malossi Torque Driver

zombie

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Re: Torque springys
« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2014, 05:53:15 PM »
 ;)
"They have nothing in their whole imperial arsenal that can break the spirit of one Irishman who doesn't want to be broken."   Bobby Sands...

245luigi

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Re: Torque springys
« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2014, 05:27:21 PM »
Toys are in!



Once I get the CVT tuned with these parts then ill pick up a clutch
Currently:
2012 Kymco Like70
72cc Malossi BBK
Dell'Orto PHBG 19 AS Carb
52 Pilot Jet
92 Main Jet
W7 Needle, 40 Slide
2T atomizer + bushing
Tecnigas Triops
Malossi Torque Driver

zombie

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Re: Torque springys
« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2014, 09:22:39 PM »
All the shiny bits make me want to start another one. F_UK!

Before you put the gears in order (stadiun yamaha) the blue shim/thrust washer, seal kit, and bearings. Another 20-30 bucks but it is worth it. To many gear sets fail trying to save 30. bucks.

Do you have a press to do the gear swap.? If not I can walk you thru how to do it.
Even if you have a press THIS IS IMPORTANT Mic. the end of the shafts BEFORE removing the gear, and again AFTER. If the shaft Dia. has changed . Chuck it up in a drill, and Emory paper back to OEM spec.. It will last for ever if you do this and maybe just a few hours/months if you don't .
Look up Batmans gear swap... One end of each shaft rides in the aluminium housing w/ no bearing. Any distortion, and it's toast
"They have nothing in their whole imperial arsenal that can break the spirit of one Irishman who doesn't want to be broken."   Bobby Sands...

245luigi

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Re: Torque springys
« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2014, 10:28:23 PM »
Well sh*t now Im doubting myself.

So I live in the city; I have to do my work on a sidewalk. I talked to ParaIndiana as he has done a gear swap on his Like50. He told be that his bearings stayed in the case. I was hoping I didn't have to pull the engine for the gear swap. I know that I have to the larger gear and I have a friend of a friend who is a motorcycle guy and is willing to press all that at his house for me (Which is over and hour and and interstate away).

In my head I thought all I would have to do is open up the transmission case, use a rubber mallet to take out the "clutch shaft" and hand over the middle gear for the other guy to press. Then just use a rubber mallet to put in the new "clutch shaft" and done!

Heres a pic of my transmission


Also can you explain the mic. step?
Currently:
2012 Kymco Like70
72cc Malossi BBK
Dell'Orto PHBG 19 AS Carb
52 Pilot Jet
92 Main Jet
W7 Needle, 40 Slide
2T atomizer + bushing
Tecnigas Triops
Malossi Torque Driver

zombie

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Re: Torque springys
« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2014, 12:05:16 AM »
Either a micrometer or outside caliper. Very often pressing a shaft will distort or mushroom the end. It may only be a few thousandths but it is enough to create a tighter fit, heat, and eventually galling of the aluminium shaft boss.

You need to measure the shaft end in at least three places before, and after swapping the gear.

One thing that will help is using a torch (propane is fine) to heat the old/new gear before pressing. It doesnt have to be red hot. Just enough to smoke the oil on it. Once the new gear is on drop it in oil or water to cool, and case harden it.

This is the anal approach but I have wrecked enough sh** to build a bridge. The rest of your plan is solid. The bearings come out with very little effort. You don't need any special tools cause they are drop in fit. Not pressed. In fact they will fall out if you heat the surrounding aluminium casing.   
"They have nothing in their whole imperial arsenal that can break the spirit of one Irishman who doesn't want to be broken."   Bobby Sands...

245luigi

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Re: Torque springys
« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2014, 01:46:36 AM »
Sheesh! Ok feeling better  ;)

Cant wait to get started
Currently:
2012 Kymco Like70
72cc Malossi BBK
Dell'Orto PHBG 19 AS Carb
52 Pilot Jet
92 Main Jet
W7 Needle, 40 Slide
2T atomizer + bushing
Tecnigas Triops
Malossi Torque Driver

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