Rollers vs Sliders?

[donandrews]

I'm looking to increase the mid-speed torque of my Like 200 to pull through the corners more effectively. My Like 200i mechanic advises to use rollers instead of sliders. Would also like to increase top speed if possible, but he says tough to do both at the same time. I have no clue. Suggestions? Thanks.
Peace and Ride Safe

[Vivo]

Sliders = greater pull from stop and increased top but mid is negligible...  Tough to do both when choosing the ideal weights...

[ts1]

More torque = more fuel to burn (with more air).
I use pulley sliders in my scoots, but they don't do any magic to the engine.
If there is any improvement (i.e. in my Yager GT 125, but not in my Xciting 500), it's a small one.
Not worth to exchange, unless the old parts need to be replaced anyway.

[Vivo]

You can experiment with different weights to get your "desired" balanced performance...

[mrmike]

  I'm not an expert, but I replaced the stock 15gr rollers in my GTI300 with Dr. Pulley 14gr sliders. It eliminated a slight hesitation that I had and definitely improved my acceleration. Not sure about top end, but still able to reach 80mph + and that's fast enough for me. Personnaly I would recommend sliders slightly lighter than stock rollers.

[Stig / Major Tom]

Perhaps you have already seen this page, donandrews. Some interesting info here from the guys I bought my sliders from.
Sorting the info is still a bit of Greek to me. But after I fit my first set I'll have a better idea of how these feel in my daily riding. "Smoother" several folks have reported - that 's about all I am looking for at my riding pace. Not more acceleration, not more top speed. I'm OK with the stock set up.
Do wish somebody would install these on our scooter and give us a report!
I think our LIKE 200i's take the 18x14...and our stock weight is 13.5gm. according to the chart posted previously here on the forum. Folks have recommend getting the "Matching Dr Pulley Variator Slide Piece" set for $7.00 to install while you're in there with the new sliders.
I have a set of 13gm and 14gm. Dr Pulley sliders. In a couple more months when I hit about 6000 miles I'll go in there and take a look at things. Also have a stock Kymco OEM belt - if it needs a new one.
Ride safe, folks.
Stig

https://www.buggypartsnw.com/index.php/dr-pulley-products/dr-pulley-slider-weights/150cc-250cc/dr-pulley-slider-weight-18x14-for-125-150cc-gy6.html

[JJJoseph]

If you're really heavy, like 300lbs+, lighter rollers will help a little with acceleration, but otherwise there won't be much difference.  When rollers get old, they develop flat spots that you might perceive as "stickiness" in changing ratios.  This is time to change to fresh rollers.  Sliders last a bit longer before getting "sticky".

[donandrews]

Thanks for all this great info and advice. I'm beginning to think that I should perhaps just keep my Like stock. I "Liked" it on my I first ride and I still "Like" it. Not much of a mechanic or tinkerer and, from the sound of it, probably wouldn't be able to feel enough of a difference to justify the cost/trouble. I would have to pay my dealer/mechanic to install them and he's quoting $100 to $150.

I'm a fairly "normal sized" guy - 5"10" and about 190, so don't have any size-weight issues to deal with. Think I'll just continue being very happy with my "normal" Like. It will outjump most cages at the light as is (not that it makes much difference anyway) and I really don't care to hit the pavement at much over 55 mph. I live in a small town (pop. 1600 - no stoplights, about 10 stop signs and no 4 lane streets) and virtually all my out of town riding is on quiet country roads, so having to get out of the way quickly is not much of an issue.
Thanks again. I really appreciate it.
Peace and Ride Safe.

[Yager200i]

What Dr. Pulley sliders will do for you is provide a slightly lower gear ratio at takeoff, since they sit lower against the ramp plate. That'll give you better acceleration.

At the top end, because they're able to push the ramp plate all the way out, unlike some stock rollers, you *might* get a bit more on the top end.

But the middle is all down to the weight of the sliders. Buy a pair of sliders that are a bit lighter than you might actually like (about 1 gram lighter), run them, see how you like them. If you think they're too light, add some Liquid Metal inside the sliders' metal cores to increase their weight by 1 gram, and try them again.

If they're still too light for you, add more Liquid Metal (you can typically get 2 grams worth into each slider's metal core before it's full), and test again.

If it's *still* too light, then you'd have to buy the next heavier set of sliders and start the process again.

I bought 16 gram sliders, increased their weight to 18.05 grams (they were 18.65 grams before the Liquid Metal cured and the acetone evaporated), and it's *almost* perfect. I'm looking around for a small bench lathe so I can turn my own cores, and a small Dake press... then I'll be able to make any weight cores to test.

What I did to make my sliders ultra-smooth was to buy this really thick, synthetic high-temperature grease at Kragen, it's usually used to grease brake cylinders. It's so thick it doesn't fling out of the variator. I put a very thin film inside the track of each slider weight, then coated each slider with a similar coating... it makes the variator work very well.

[mrbios]

I made the switch from rollers to sliders on my grand this the 250 at about ten thousand miles.  there were several simple important things if you want a good outcome: make sure that for the motor size and model that you consult with other users regarding the proper weight. I almost made the mistake of choosing too heavy a weight. there are lots of people that have really invested the time for a given scooter model and motor size and observed the different characteristics and can really guide your decision and save you time.  The reason is the slider behaves different than the roller weight so a 15 gram roller might be equivalent to a 14 or 13 gram slider.  I think the main benefit of the slider is durability and longevity you can increase or decrease the weight in a roller or slider and get the same basic effect.

[Stig / Major Tom]

Don,
I just finished replacing the belt, airfilter and changed out the rollers for Dr Pulleys.....
While I was in there I took out the clutch and buffed the glaze off of the 3 clutch pads and scoured out the bell.
Cleaned everything to like new....including buffing & lightly texturing the pulley surfaces.
Biggest issue was trying to put the cover back on with a flimsy OEM gasket....
I gave that up after an hour - put the cover back on with no gasket - and two very clean mating surfaces (also a lot of work)
I figure since the top of the belt cover is partially covered by the airfilter housing - and the body side panel - hopefully no too much water will get in there when I ride in the rain.
Also dumped the 'puke tube' - which had a good little bit of oily water in it..
Getting it off - cleaning it - and getting it all back on - is probablyl worth the $100-$150 your dealer is asking. I am NOT one who would like to do that several times - playing with different weights. The crash bars complicate things a bit.
BTW - the pulley surfaces, the belt,, filter and weights looked pretty good. Only changed them out because I was in there.
Will weigh the rollers tomorrow to see what the factory is putting in a stock LIKE.
Also, the belt had no arrows on it - so I installed with the writing on the top of belt - reading L to R - facing me squatting on the left side of scoot.
Took it for a 30 sec. test drive in the rain - apparently I didn't screw up anything on my first try at this stuff.
Will know more tomorrow and will give a report.
Stig (pooped)
PS - the mailman helped me get this finished - bringing my new torque wrentch and CVT holding tool (I knoiw folks are making these - but I make more than $12 an hour ----which is what I paid for this - and didn't have to run to Home Depot)

[mrbios]

Don,
I just finished replacing the belt, ....

Stig, nice post.  A few tips I picked up.  A dealer told me when they put a new belt on and especially roller weights the take the scoot for a quick ride to make sure there is no issues - excessive vibration - the roller / slider weights can move out of place when installing the metal cover.

I had the same dilemma about the direction of the belt. 

The Gasket can be held in place with shelac or "Hi-tack" by Permatex / Loctite - these are very thin silicone and comes with a brush applicator and is great for holding any paper or rubber gasket in place.  I doubt the water will be an issue and I just threw my old gasket away. 

[Stig / Major Tom]

Stig, nice post.  A few tips I picked up.  A dealer told me when they put a new belt on and especially roller weights the take the scoot for a quick ride to make sure there is no issues - excessive vibration - the roller / slider weights can move out of place when installing the metal cover.

I had the same dilemma about the direction of the belt. 

The Gasket can be held in place with shelac or "Hi-tack" by Permatex / Loctite - these are very thin silicone and comes with a brush applicator and is great for holding any paper or rubber gasket in place.  I doubt the water will be an issue and I just threw my old gasket away. 

Thanks mrbios!
Next time I'm in the belt cover I'll look at putting that hi-tack on --- and get my new gasket back out of my sock drawer.
Yep - I was very careful about putting the variator back on so as not to mis-lodge the sliders...and very careful to make certain the pulleys were fully seated and not just pinching the belt when I torqued it back together.

One thing I noted in the disassembly: the clutch nut was much tighter than the variator nut. Which did not jive with the recommended torque settings for re-assembly. (40 & 69 ft-lb) I torqued the new clutch nut until I heard the click on my new torque wrench - then torqued the new variator nut until judgement told me to stop -without a 69 click - but with blue locktite on both nuts. Looking at that drive shaft diameter - I said 'that' is enough before it snaps.
Thanks again for your remarks
Stig

[245luigi]

In theory couldn't Don put a step up torque spring in? That way when the turning load is placed on the spring in keeps the CVT in a better gear?

Or am I talking out of my ass?

[mrbios]

... the clutch nut was much tighter than the variator nut. Which did not jive with the recommended torque settings for re-assembly. (40 & 69 ft-lb) I torqued the new clutch nut until I heard the click on my new torque wrench - then torqued the new variator nut until judgement told me to stop -without a 69 click - but with blue locktite on both nuts. Looking at that drive shaft diameter - I said 'that' is enough before it snaps.
Thanks again for your remarks
Stig

Some parts get tighter when they move.  I agree with your thoughts about the tension.

First you did the right thing by using torque as a guide instead of a hard and fast number carved in stone.  Torque in the area of tightening bolts is a mix of art and science because the torque setting was set in laboratory conditions at the factory when all the metal was brand new.

Metal can rust,  get stressed from over-tightening which during reassembly, while riding, hitting bumps etc.  Dirt or sand or oil can get in the threads which will alter the torque value possibly requiring more or less torque to reach the same tightness that the mfg intended. 

I estimated as I used a pneumatic impact wrench to reassemble both of the large nuts.  The rest of the parts from big to small I do by hand with a goal of making them "snug" for their size and purpose.  I lost some bolts in the outer plastic belt cover so I replaced them with generic bolts and applied blue Loctite.  When small fasteners come loose making them tighter often will not solve the problem - make them snug and use blue Loctite. 

Critical parts like the head of a motor or piston etc.  Those parts require exact torque and identical tightness to apply uniform pressure on the head, etc to avoid warping or leaks.  In such situations I never guess or estimate.