Ultracapacitors in place of battery...

[Yager200i]

So I'm going to try something new... I'm going to do away with the battery completely. I'll replace it with 12 Maxwell D-Cell 350 Farad ultracapacitors.

I'll wire six capacitors in series, and make two banks of those. Then I'll wire the two banks in parallel. This'll give me 700 Farad of capacitance.

The only issue I have to work out is a method of current limiting when capacitor voltage is low, so I don't blow out the rectifier/voltage regulator with too much current. I'm planning on using a couple 30 watt festoon style lights to act as current limiters.

The good thing is that everything will fit in the casing of a motorcycle battery with room to spare... now I just have to find a manufacturer of empty motorcycle battery casings. The finished product will look just like a motorcycle battery, but will last a lot longer (the caps are rated to last 10 years), and there'll be no possibility of cold weather limiting battery current, battery acid getting all over everything, there should be a higher voltage available to the spark coil when cranking the engine over because the caps can deliver more current, etc.

I've also found a 30 watt 15 volt DC hand crank generator, so if the cap voltage goes too low and I'm not near a 120 volt outlet (I've got the battery tender for plugging in if I need to), I can hand crank to charge the caps. I'll mount the generator to the frame, drill a hole through the body, and that way I can put the removable crank in to turn the generator. I also plan on mounting a small volt meter next to the crank handle hole, so I can see the charge state of the caps.

Please speak up if I'm overlooking something.

See the attached images.

[zombie]

I guess the novelty is cool. How about just replacing all the bulbs with LED's, and electronic relays for the winkers...

If you have your heart set on it a Triac can be used to establish over voltage limits, and a bridge rectifier to replace the regulator which is actually a rectifier, and noise suppressor cap.

Then you could run the paint on solar panels to charge, and throw away the WW I crank idea...

New Solar Paint Research Paves The Way To Affordable Solar Power
http://cleantechnica.com/2013/05/15/caution-wet-solar-power-new-affordable-solar-paint-research/

[zombie]

In thinking about it... I belive it would be too distracting wondering if all those do-dads were working...

[Yager200i]

It'll have a few advantages:
1) It'll be cheaper in the long run... I'm already on my third battery in just 3 years. The first one got weak and started burping battery acid all over. The second one had a cell die. The third one is currently in service. The ultracapacitors are rated by the manufacturer to last 10 years. They'll probably last longer, as there'll be very little opportunity for them to experience too high a temperature or too high a voltage.

2) No battery acid, so no battery acid burping all over the place. Had this happen twice with the original battery.

3) They can output huge amounts of current without voltage drop. Whereas a battery's high internal resistance drops the output voltage when it's loaded, the caps won't do that. So the starter will spin a bit faster, and while it's spinning, voltage to the spark will be higher, making for an easier start.

4) They charge more quickly, and don't boil or burp hydrogen or acid like batteries. Batteries start gassing even before they're fully charged. And God forbid a cell is weak, it'll start gassing like mad and burping acid, even if it's a sealed or AGM battery.

5) The AGM batteries (which I currently have) have a problem where due to the flow of electrons, it tends to wick the battery acid toward the positive terminal of each cell, leaving the negative end of the cell starved. This causes a drop in battery capacity.

6) About 5 pounds weight savings. And that's weight that's high-up on our bikes, so it'll lower the center of gravity.

7) Can be run all the way down to 0 volts without damage. Whereas a battery can be damaged if you get it down below 9 volts or so.

8) While I don't experience freezing weather here except for maybe one or two days every few years, conventional batteries experience reduced capacity in cold weather, whereas ultracapacitors don't. Not a big consideration for me, but for others considering this, it might be.

There's a guy on YouTube who's running this exact setup in his car, and it appears to run alright, so in a scooter, it should do just fine. He started with the larger ultracapacitors, and decided to try the small D-Cell types to see if they worked, as well. They did.

The only difference with my setup is that I'll be putting it inside an empty motorcycle battery casing, so it looks just like a regular motorcycle battery.

[Vivo]

Capacitors charge fast and discharge fast.. they don't store energy, they "hold" a charge... unlike batteries...  Yes, your starting would be fine and recharging also... just don't use the capacitors when the engine is OFF... like turning on lights or charging a phone, etc. .. you will run out of juice in no time...

[zombie]

Yeah!

[Yager200i]

Good news!

I jiggered the drawing around to maximize the space used, and was able to find space for two more ultracapacitors. So now I can use 7 ultracapacitors in each bank, which will give me a maximum voltage before ultracapacitor damage occurs of 19.95 volts. The old maximum was 17.1 volts, which was a bit close for comfort.

I've still got plenty of space for the diodes and festoon lights that act as a current limiter. Too bad they don't make square ultracapacitors... the round ones waste a lot of space when stacking them together.

The self-discharge current when operating at this per-cell voltage, with average temperatures where I live will be about 0.005 mA. If temperatures go up to 100 F, I'd see about 0.05 mA self-discharge.

[zombie]

Ok. Now I think you're messing w/ us or you're like a 4 year old savant or something. Why are you talking about 17-19 volts? Is there something I am missing?

Yes it is cool for sure but better suited to strobe lights or Tazers or rail guns.

Like Vivo said sorta. These are better suited as voltage BUFFERS. I CAN see using them to make up for short high demand pulses but not as a battery or storage device. You could add a crap load of them anywhere on the bike you want, and use them as they are designed to buffer the load on the battery. That alone will extend the life well who knows how long. But lets say you hit a puddle... The bike stalls... You try once to start... Twice is not an option, and you break out the crank... You will be cranking/no start/cranking/ no start until you walk to walmart and buy a 40 dollar battery.
I dont want to pee in your cool aid (just lied there) but there are MUCH better approaches to integrating them into a 12v 10a charging/starting system

Maybe I'll fill my mud room w/ them, and hook it to the door knob... Hmmm.

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Use these, A flyback transformer and a triac attached to a voltage regulator, and you stand a better chance at 2-3 start attempts if you really wanna try it

[Yager200i]

The Alibaba cap you posted a link to is only 25 MFD (although they're offering for sale caps up to 100 MFD), whereas I'll have 700 Farad. Huge difference.



He's only using 6 of them, giving about 2.33 volts at 14 volts charging voltage. Being a car, it's probably got better voltage regulation than our scooters, so 7 cells per bank gives me a cushion before capacitor damage occurs.

He let it sit over the weekend (from Friday night to Monday morning) with just the six cells, starting at 13.4 volts, and it ended up at 10.4 volts. The car started just fine.

I'll have double the storage (two banks), with a lower per-cell voltage. So I'll have less self-discharge voltage drop. And when a scooter is off, there's no power drain, whereas in a car, there is usually a tiny bit.

So it'll work.

[zombie]

Dude for real I get it. I've used them for lots of things but never a battery. No disrespect at all to your project, I just say things differently.
I just don't see the advantage you expect. I am OFTEN blind to alot of things but in this case if it were that easy we all would have wifes with night tables full of super caps instead of batteries, and chargers.

IT'S COOL! Keep the posts coming cause it is interesting to see other peoples ideas, and talents. I'll be watching this like some newly discovered Soprano's episodes.

[LoveMyKymco]

There will be little to absolutely no gain using a battery pack except youre being different and like to use the kick starter. Battery packs are good for atvs and other vehicles that use a kick starter as a primary way of start up.
They are used to save space and weight, not a performance gain at all, and a hand crank generator? Cool factor 10, useful factor 2.
Also Caps do not hold charge over long periods (if charged then connected to a circuit) the way a dry cell or immersed wet plate style, so if youre complaining about replacing batteries get ready for fun. Just save yourself some trouble and get a yuasa battery made for your bike. Caps will bleed out their charge unless isolated separately. This is including low level voltage super caps.
Cool factor 10/useful still at a minimal 2.
Its also more than just my opinion as its been proven time after time of replacing stock regulators on scooters people have done this too.
Read up here a little about rc tc and utc.
http://www.tpub.com/neets/book2/3d.htm

[Yager200i]

There'll be no gain except for cheaper in the long run, not having to worry about acid burping all over the place again (which ended up with me having to rebuild the data port plug so I could plug in the handheld diagnostic tool, having to disassemble and scrub the better part of the entire back of the bike piece by piece, and getting an acid burn on my wrist), better starts and better cold weather battery performance.

The caps in the link I posted to the video, at the voltage they're being charged to, self discharge at about 0.02 mA at 68 degrees F (not taking into account any loads from the car itself, which a car usually has at least a clock on the radio to power). That's 0.00024 watts. So what ran his cap pack down by 3 volts over the course of 60 or so hours wasn't self-discharge, it was drain from electronics on the car that aren't shut off with the key.

The scooter, not having any drain when the key is off, won't have that drain at all. The only drain will be self-discharge. And at the voltage I'll be charging them to (2.1 volts approximately), the self-discharge drain will be on the order of 0.005 ma, or 0.00006 watts at 68 degrees F.

Should outside temperature rise to 104 F (which it almost never does here), the self-discharge rate would be ten-fold, or 0.0006 watts, according to the manufacturer's data sheet and The Journal of Power Sources (which tested these ultracapacitors for a report).

I did learn something new, though. The total capacitance won't be 700 Farad, it'll be 100 Farad. 50 Farad per bank.

Seven 350F in series = 350/7 or 1/((1/350)+(1/350)+(1/350)+(1/350)+(1/350)+(1/350)+ (1/350))) = 50. Put 2 of these in parallel and it gives you 100 F.

That's still a metric buttload of capacitance, though, and it appears to work just fine for the guy's car, even with the key-off loads drawing small amounts of current, so it should work on a scooter.

The scooter is transitioning into a rolling experimental testing platform. So expect odd additions to it from time to time. That's why I've dubbed it FrankenYager.

[Yager200i]

Its also more than just my opinion as its been proven time after time of replacing stock regulators on scooters people have done this too.

That's why I put the (admittedly old school and rough) light bulb current limiting idea in there, to protect the voltage regulator from overcurrent. The ability of ultracapacitors to charge at extremely high current rates would toast our voltage regulators if cap voltage was low. Admittedly rough because I'm not an electrician, I'm a mechanic. The light bulb charging trick was something we used back on the farm... a diode, a 100 watt light bulb, and plug it in... does the trick every time.

But now that I've spoken with my electronics guy and done a bit of research on my own, I have a better idea of how to implement this and vastly improve the capacity. Think "joule thief" and bi-toroidal wound transformer feeding all the caps in parallel. Well, not all of them, 10 of them (I'd need some space for the electronics), which would give me 3500 Farad capacitance. The circuitry would allow me to draw their voltage down very low while still maintaining 12 volt output, while ensuring the charging voltage to the caps can't exceed 2.5 volts and the charging current can't exceed 5 amps.

It's not set in stone yet, but I'll keep working on it until I get it formulated into a workable solution.

[LoveMyKymco]

Sounds like its going to be fun! I use sealed batteries so I dont have to worry about burps of acid. When you get it all sorted out you could probably sell them as a kit.

[zombie]

bi-toroidal wound transformer = fly-back transformer
Triac
Ground filter cap