Author Topic: Ultracapacitors in place of battery...  (Read 7404 times)

Yager200i

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 385
    • View Profile
Re: Ultracapacitors in place of battery...
« Reply #15 on: April 23, 2014, 10:22:40 PM »
Yeah, you were right, Zombie. The best method is to use a high-amperage joule thief circuit to allow the caps voltage to be drawn low (when the bike's not running) while outputting 12 volts to the bike. The charging circuit will be a simple 5 amp DC-DC 12 volt to 2.33 volt circuit. I don't want to go much over 2.33 volts, to extend the life of the caps.

I'll have to remove 4 of the caps to make room for the electronics, but that'd still give me 3500 Farad. That's a huge amount.

I just have to figure out how to shut off the circuitry so there's no drain when the key is off, and have it come back on when the key is turned on. Once it turns off, there'll be no power to the bike, so how to turn it back on? Maybe just something as simple as a switch, eh? Anti-theft, too. :)

zombie

  • You never know do ya!
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13870
  • Close enough to get the idea!
    • View Profile
Re: Ultracapacitors in place of battery...
« Reply #16 on: April 23, 2014, 10:36:05 PM »
Use a 12 volt cell cell phone charger as a regulator.
The phone end (2.5 volts) to the bats, and the Cigarette lighter end to the stator. Dollar store!!!
"They have nothing in their whole imperial arsenal that can break the spirit of one Irishman who doesn't want to be broken."   Bobby Sands...

Yager200i

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 385
    • View Profile
Re: Ultracapacitors in place of battery...
« Reply #17 on: April 23, 2014, 10:49:41 PM »
Sounds like its going to be fun! I use sealed batteries so I dont have to worry about burps of acid. When you get it all sorted out you could probably sell them as a kit.

The battery that burped acid all over on my bike was supposedly a sealed battery... but one of the cells got weak, so the charging circuit kept trying to charge the battery, and it gassed, and pushed acid out. The inside back wall of the battery box was completely gray with it... so much so that I couldn't see the head of the bottom screw that holds the battery box in... I'm amazed the battery kept working.

So I'm going to try a route that doesn't entail having heavy and toxic lead and acid.

I won't sell it as a kit, I'll just sell the plans, same as the other things I'm working on (the dual electric coolant pump setup, the exhaust heat recovery system, the water injection and dynamic lambda leaning circuitry, etc.).

The dual electric coolant pumps will allow me to monitor cylinder head, exhaust gas and coolant temperatures, change coolant temperature in 1 F increments, and kick on both pumps (and up to two radiator fans) if overheat is detected. I'm considering a load-based sliding scale for coolant temperature... 10 F warmer under light load, then it cools it back down if you get on the throttle. This will allow for more efficient around town riding by increasing the thermal efficiency of the engine, but prevent predetonation when you're hitting it hard.

The exhaust heat recovery system will allow faster warmup, will heat the fuel for better atomization, will heat the intake air to trick the ECU into thinking it's a warm day (our scooters suffer bad fuel mileage on cold days), will heat water for injection, will allow people riding in cold weather environments to do away with the 'block a part of the radiator with cardboard to keep temperatures up' trick, and will act as an auxiliary radiator on really hot days.

The water injection and dynamic lambda leaning circuitry will take the PWM pulse width going to the fuel injector and create a second proportional PWM pulse to power a water injector. Thus, we don't have to know exactly how much water to inject for any given engine speed or load, it's a function of ambient humidity, EGT and fuel injector PWM pulse width. This is an effective means of internal cooling, lean combustion knock prevention by boosting octane, and a good way to keep combustion temperatures below the point where NOx is formed. It'll also automatically tune lambda for maximum EGT then inject the necessary amount of water to keep EGT within safe limits. This will let the engine run leaner than normal without a loss of power.

If you look at a lambda curve, all the pollutants going out the exhaust pipe decline drastically when burning lean, except NOx. By leaning, and injecting water as a means of internal cooling, we'll be able to get great mileage *and* have cleaner exhaust.

I just have to figure out how to account for ambient humidity and find a humidity sensor that can withstand elevated intake temperatures of 160 F.

I'll probably end up replacing the ECU with a MicroSquirt controller, and programming it to take all the variables into account. It's got a wideband O2 sensor, which would be beneficial. Then selling the MicroSquirt ECU program and programming guide to those who are interested.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2014, 10:53:22 PM by Yager200i »

zombie

  • You never know do ya!
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13870
  • Close enough to get the idea!
    • View Profile
Re: Ultracapacitors in place of battery...
« Reply #18 on: April 24, 2014, 03:46:00 AM »
I admit I just scanned thru that last post. Water injectors are old school, and do alot of good things depending on the final mix ratio.

The 2 issues you have to watch out for are steam cleaning the cylinder walls from "blow by" (a new hone/piston/rings should take care of that), and excessive compression ratios due to the expanding water vapor. That's why blow by can be an issue.
I've run water injection in all sorts of engines, and it really becomes fun when you start adding Ethanol/benzine or ethanol/hydrogen peroxide mixtures.

BE FRIGGING CAREFULL w/ Eth/H.P.
 It will kill you, and 1/2 your neighborhood if you don/t research it first but it makes one hell of alot of power when vaporized. It is literally rocket fuel.

Back to fun stuff... You have FrankenYeager.
I have two dogs named Macenstein, and Dre'culla. They HATE each other, and the names are quite fitting for them. My avatar is an example of their breed. Presa Canario's
"They have nothing in their whole imperial arsenal that can break the spirit of one Irishman who doesn't want to be broken."   Bobby Sands...

Vivo

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4980
    • View Profile
Re: Ultracapacitors in place of battery...
« Reply #19 on: April 28, 2014, 12:23:31 PM »
Use a battery...Lol!!

zombie

  • You never know do ya!
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13870
  • Close enough to get the idea!
    • View Profile
Re: Ultracapacitors in place of battery...
« Reply #20 on: April 28, 2014, 09:17:18 PM »
 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D   :-*
"They have nothing in their whole imperial arsenal that can break the spirit of one Irishman who doesn't want to be broken."   Bobby Sands...

CROSSBOLT

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7764
  • West Tennessee, USA
    • View Profile
Re: Ultracapacitors in place of battery...
« Reply #21 on: April 28, 2014, 09:51:26 PM »
Personally, I think you are on the right track. That guy in the vid started his Scion with these capacitors quite easily. They ought to do well on any scoot. Capacity is capacity whether battery or capacitor. There is some way to calculate the capacity of the scoot battery in coulombs based on its voltage and current of discharge which could be compared to the the coulombs stashed in the capacitors at 13 to 14 volts but why strain? His rig got 3 to 5 starts before the bus voltage dropped to just above 10 volts. That should equate to 6 to 10 starts on a scooter. Recharge will be faster in a bunch of caps in series than any battery. I await your results! Mouser electronics has these for about 11 bucks apiece so it is not much worse than just a replacement battery. Certainly a LOT better than the Li-ion replacements without the dangerous fire hazards.

Karl
Karl

Three motorcycles 1960-1977 (restored a 1955 BSA)
Agility 50
Yager 200i
Downtown 300i
Navy tech, Ships Engineer, pilot and aircraft mechanic

zombie

  • You never know do ya!
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13870
  • Close enough to get the idea!
    • View Profile
Re: Ultracapacitors in place of battery...
« Reply #22 on: April 28, 2014, 10:08:17 PM »
Battery ratings : Batteries And Power Systems
http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_1/chpt_11/3.html

This gives you the coulomb conversion
"They have nothing in their whole imperial arsenal that can break the spirit of one Irishman who doesn't want to be broken."   Bobby Sands...

Yager200i

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 385
    • View Profile
Re: Ultracapacitors in place of battery...
« Reply #23 on: April 29, 2014, 02:29:15 AM »
I've come up with a way of putting all the ultracapacitors in parallel, and jumping the voltage stored in them up to 12 volts for the bike's electrical system. In this way, rather than only 100 Farad with 14 ultracaps (two parallel banks of 7 caps each in series), I'll have 10 caps in parallel, giving me 3500 Farad.

There'll be a solid state DC-DC 50 amp converter to convert the cap voltage to the bike's electrical system voltage, which will turn off automatically if system voltage is high enough (ie: when the engine is running and the generator is making power, or when the bike is off and the downstream small ultracap bank is charged to 12 volts) to prevent draining the caps when the bike is off. There'll be a small ultracapacitor bank downstream of the DC-DC converter that will act as a small battery to allow a charge to be stored to keep the DC-DC converter off when the bike is off.

Assuming all the loads of the bike (headlight, brake light, ECU, spark coil, fuel pump, O2 sensor heater, running lights and starter, etc.) take about 40 amps maximum when they're all energized, we get the following.

A 1 Farad capacitor at 1 volt stores one Coulomb of charge. A 350 Farad cap at 2.5 volts would store 875 Coulomb. So for 3500 Farad, we'd have 8750 Coulomb.

One amp represents an electron flow of one Coulomb per second.

So 8750 Coulomb / 40 Coulombs per second = 218 seconds or so... not taking into account inefficiencies, losses, etc.

Even at end of life for the ultracaps (which assumes a 20% loss of storage capacity), we'd still get 174 seconds.

That's definitely enough power to get the bike started, even in the worst of circumstances. And I'll have the hand-crank generator if I'm out in the middle of nowhere with a dead battery. It's small and light, so it adds almost nothing to the weight of the bike.

For charging the caps, my electronics guy and I are looking at doing something completely different. We're going to attempt to capture some of the energy that's being thrown away anyway from the OEM ground-shunt voltage regulator before it's shunted to ground.

We'll be using a reduced back-EMF transformer with vortex windings to recapture some of that pulsed electricity (pulsed as the voltage regulator's MOSFETs turn on and off) by putting it through the primary winding before it goes to ground.

A reduced back-EMF transformer is a new invention, it is essentially a magnetic diode, allowing two magnetic flux paths... one for the primary coil, one for the secondary coils.

In a normal transformer, putting voltage through the primary coil causes a magnetic flux that travels through the core to the secondary coil. The secondary coil, when loaded, creates a magnetic flux that opposes the primary coil's magnetic flux, reducing the primary coil's inductance, and allowing more current to flow through the primary coil. This increased current flow creates a stronger primary coil magnetic flux with overpowers the secondary coil magnetic flux, allowing more power to be extracted from the secondary coil.

In a reduced back-EMF transformer, the two fluxes are more separated. Since magnetic flux flows like electricity (in that it always seeks the path of least resistance), the secondary coil magnetic flux flows in a secondary pathway thus avoiding the primary coil's opposing magnetic flux. In this way, the primary coil doesn't get much back-EMF, so its inductance doesn't change much. This allows us to design the coil's inductance such that it'll work without affecting the performance of the voltage regulator.

The vortex coils are coils that are wound such that they concentrate the magnetic flux very strongly in the center of the coil (in fact, vortex coils can be wound such that you can create high voltage plasma in a plasma tube using an air core vortex coil that's being driven with a mere 40 volts). This will ensure the highest magnetic flux coupling between the coils and the core, and means the coils can be small and light.

The core itself will be made of Ferrotron or similar. It's a high permeability, low hysteresis, non-saturating, non-conducting core material. This will minimize losses to eddy currents, hysteresis losses and saturation inefficiencies.

Not sure if it'll all work, but that's what research is for.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2014, 03:15:10 AM by Yager200i »

zombie

  • You never know do ya!
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13870
  • Close enough to get the idea!
    • View Profile
Re: Ultracapacitors in place of battery...
« Reply #24 on: April 29, 2014, 04:22:04 AM »
Quoted...

"There'll be a solid state DC-DC 50 amp converter to convert the cap voltage to the bike's electrical system voltage, which will turn off automatically if system voltage is high enough (ie: when the engine is running and the generator is making power, or when the bike is off and the downstream small ultracap bank is charged to 12 volts) to prevent draining the caps when the bike is off. There'll be a small ultracapacitor bank downstream of the DC-DC converter that will act as a small battery to allow a charge to be stored to keep the DC-DC converter off when the bike is off."

You can make a much cheaper version here...
Solid State Relay SSR 5 220V DC 40A Heat Sink | eBay
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Solid-State-Relay-SSR-5-220V-DC-40A-Heat-Sink-/250672011513

When the key is off it will disconnect the cap bank. They are cheap enough to use one for each pole, and add a 50 amp diodes to prevent leakage thru the SSR's when they are off.

50 Amp 100 Volt Bridge Rectifier MP15010 50 Amp Full Wave Diode Rectifier | eBay
http://www.ebay.com/itm/50-Amp-100-Volt-Bridge-Rectifier-MP15010-50-Amp-Full-Wave-Diode-Rectifier-/130905566376

If you want more info on the SSR's, and application charts for the different types...
http://www.crydom.com/en/Tech/Newsletters/Solid%20Statements%20-%20SSRs%20switching%20types.pdf

"They have nothing in their whole imperial arsenal that can break the spirit of one Irishman who doesn't want to be broken."   Bobby Sands...

Yager200i

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 385
    • View Profile
Re: Ultracapacitors in place of battery...
« Reply #25 on: April 29, 2014, 06:02:48 AM »
His rig got 3 to 5 starts before the bus voltage dropped to just above 10 volts. That should equate to 6 to 10 starts on a scooter.

With the setup as we envision it now, as compared to a battery, you'll see a regular battery's voltage decline over time at a steady but accelerating rate as a load is placed upon it. The ultracap setup will remain at 12 volts until the DC-DC converter can no longer produce 12 volts provided the voltage of the caps, and will shut off completely.

CROSSBOLT

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7764
  • West Tennessee, USA
    • View Profile
Re: Ultracapacitors in place of battery...
« Reply #26 on: April 29, 2014, 02:45:35 PM »
Quit talkin' and start building!

Karl
Karl

Three motorcycles 1960-1977 (restored a 1955 BSA)
Agility 50
Yager 200i
Downtown 300i
Navy tech, Ships Engineer, pilot and aircraft mechanic

zombie

  • You never know do ya!
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13870
  • Close enough to get the idea!
    • View Profile
Re: Ultracapacitors in place of battery...
« Reply #27 on: April 29, 2014, 04:59:04 PM »
LOL!
"They have nothing in their whole imperial arsenal that can break the spirit of one Irishman who doesn't want to be broken."   Bobby Sands...

modmaster

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 56
  • I will leave no bike I own stock.
    • View Profile
Re: Ultracapacitors in place of battery...
« Reply #28 on: April 29, 2014, 05:16:41 PM »
I got one heck of a headache just trying to read through the different ideas you guys have. Whooo! Wouldn't an AGM type battery be a better replacement? No acid to worry about. Just saying.

modmaster

zombie

  • You never know do ya!
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13870
  • Close enough to get the idea!
    • View Profile
Re: Ultracapacitors in place of battery...
« Reply #29 on: April 29, 2014, 09:21:39 PM »
Too many ways to skin a cat.
"They have nothing in their whole imperial arsenal that can break the spirit of one Irishman who doesn't want to be broken."   Bobby Sands...

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function split()