CVT tuning

[chaz35]

B&L thanks for post, very interesting, have to think about it some more.  I still am trying to figure out how the torque driver works mechanically, how the parts fit together.  I only had it apart 1 time and can't remember exactly how it all goes together.  Fun to learn new stuff.  Cheers

[chaz35]

Looked up torque spec for variator and clutch, only 25 ft #'s, so feeling more comfortable with using impact driver.  Also, many would object, but probably OK to use piston stop to hold variator, and rear brakes to hold clutch for assembly/ to properly torque to 25 ft #'s. 

Don't use impact driver and piston stop!!!

Got in Malossi variator kit 519988, looks nice, why they include 9gr rollers I don't know.  Ordered Malossi torque driver to go with it and green torque spring.  I will have white (OEM stiffness), green +60% stiffness, and purple +82% stillness Malossi torque springs, so should be able to really dial it in.

Rode scooter approx 100 miles today, runs great with OEM CVT with 7.5gr Dr Pulley sliders and Malossi Purple torque spring.  I am thinking all the new Malossi stuff is overkill.  Although CVT does work very well, there is a lot of modulation going on, over revs some from stop, then settles down and does gear shift thing, but scooter is flying.  I can tell some torque/ HP left on the table, but how much?, will just have to install all the cool new Malossi stuff and see how it runs.

I am thinking need straight cut torque driver to eliminate gear shift, otherwise have to compromise with too much revs sometimes and too little others.  With straight cut torque driver, should be able to get nice flat powerband from stop to top speed?, or maybe too much to hope for, we will see.

Had fun today.  Cheers

[BettinANDlosing]

Score, i love their parts. Such quality.

[gosku]

Awesome my friend! I'm glad to hear you are satisfied with the performance. I'm dying to read what Malossi variator set did to your CVT and if it's worth the buck, let us know when you test ride it!

Have fun!

[chaz35]

Installed all the new Malossi parts.  Thought about testing all the different components, finally decided too much trouble.  Could really see the ramps were higher on the Malossi variator, appears will close the pulley more for possible higher gear.  Diameter about the same, maybe a little more.  The limiting factor is the housing for the starter bendix in the CVT casting.  I installed the 9gr rollers, because the white spring had at least 2 more coils than the purple one I took out, I guess I got the right torque spring, makes me wonder?  Not much difference in stiffness, maybe white one stiffer?

Noticed kick starter is separate from electric starter, so understand how that works now.

I disassembled the torque driver to see how to do it and noticed the slots had a pretty shallow dog leg, less than I thought I would see.  I realized I had the spring collar assembled wrong, had both collars on torque driver side, so fixed that.  Don't have the Malossi torque driver yet, so put it all back together with the white spring.

Raining here, no testing yet.  Will report soon.  Cheers

[chaz35]

White torque spring too stiff, revs way past powerband, no top end speed.  So, kit as it came with 9gr rollers, white torque spring doesn't work for me.  Maybe would work on more modified engine with more HP and higher powerband, I don't know.  Actually, after doing a little research, I think it may be for an over range rear pulley, which is not what I have, but maybe some that buy the kit have an over range rear pulley?  Apparently, just the color is not all you need to know, not all Malossi white springs are the same.

Put it back the way it was with new Malossi variator, Kymco OEM torque spring and Dr Pulley 7.5gr sliders.  Ran pretty well, really likes to stay in low gear and rev, pretty much have to give it WOT to get going, took awhile to get use to.  Once moving, works a lot better keeping revs up if get slowed and need to accelerate again, revs will come right back up.  Top end a little better, I really like the mid and top end with the Malossi variator.  Seems like it needs a little heavier rollers, so will try my OEM Kymco 8gr rollers next.  I like it, don't want to go back to OEM variator at this point.  Not sure, but seems faster in traffic.

Pretty confused about Malossi torque springs.  I thought the white spring was supposed to be OEM replacement.  If you look at a torque spring with the end on top and bottom facing you and count the wires, I get 8 for the white, 6 for the purple I have, 6 for the OEM Kymco.  If you search for images on the web you can count number of coils for the same colors and get different numbers.  Seems like 7 is the correct number of coils for standard rear pulleys and maybe more for over range pulleys, I don't know.  Anyway, the white one I got with the kit I can't use.  Now I know why the purple one works so well, it's not +82%, is missing 1 coil, has 6 appears should have 7, so is probably same as OEM Kymco.  Torque springs, something else to learn about.  Cheers

[BettinANDlosing]

Yeah man most of the mhr stuff is really for high end race, my over range came with like 3.5g rollers lol. And with the springs, there's more than just the coils, the actual thickness off the metal in the coils plays a big part too. I try and not base it off color and go with feel, put them both on the ground and feel how much resistance it has compared to another. The spring is installed almost fully compressed so make sure to feel it all the way to the floor.

[chaz35]

B&L you are right as usual.  I think all is well, scooter is running better than ever.  Just a surprise about the white Malossi torque spring, and appears my other one a purple is a little different too.  Oh well, learned something new today.  Cheers

[gosku]

Nice! Funny that in the end you returned to some OEM parts!

Today I installed Malossi torsion controller, changed the belt to a new one (OEM of course) and changed the OEM rollers to Malossi 7 grams. The spring is the stock one. The difference is huge. According to my speedometer (which I have fixed today too) I'm doing above 60kmh when going uphill, and the hills are actually quite steep. Before changes I managed to ride 40kmh at best. Another good thing is that if I brake when riding uphill, I can then gain the 60kmh again with no problem. The engine stays at good RPMs no matter the terrain. On flat I'm fast to 70kmh, then it slows down but I'm nearly able to get to the limit on my speedo which is 80kmh. Probably Malossi variator could help improve this even more, but overally I'm very satisfied and do not want to mess with torsion springs / rollers anymore because it feels like I have already found the sweet spot

Happy riding!

[chaz35]

Yes, unless you just want to tweak it, I would stay with what you have.  My experience same as yours, will run very well just changing out to lighter rollers.  I am going to try 9gr rollers in mine next.

Also, I thought about cutting a couple of coils off the white torque spring and trying it.  I know I will loose the nice flat part on one end of the spring, but with the spring collar, maybe won't cause a problem?  Cheers

[BettinANDlosing]

Yes, unless you just want to tweak it, I would stay with what you have.  My experience same as yours, will run very well just changing out to lighter rollers.  I am going to try 9gr rollers in mine next.

Also, I thought about cutting a couple of coils off the white torque spring and trying it.  I know I will loose the nice flat part on one end of the spring, but with the spring collar, maybe won't cause a problem?  Cheers

One thing I just found out about my Malossi variator on my Zuma, it takes the 19x15.5 rollers, and I've been using Dr. Pulley sliders for some time. I found out this weekend that they are flipping in place. I tested it then checked it right away and sure enough they are flipping. So I went back to regular rollers and they work great. So if your malossi vario that takes the 19x15.5 rollers is acting funny, try rollers.

[chaz35]

Thanks for heads up on Dr Pulley sliders, Malossi variator takes 16x13, and I think the 16x13 7.5gr Dr Pulley sliders were working OK, except too light.

Today, I tried the 9gr Malossi rollers that came with the kit.  Wow, they worked great, seemed to be pretty close to perfect.  Only other issue is the Malossi torque driver I am waiting on.  When it comes in I will install it, test it, and report.  Probably wasted $'s on it, because the shift with the OEM torque driver is very slight with the Malossi variator installed.  With the OEM variator, the shift was very pronounced, but acceptable.  The Malossi variator will be faster/ better but at additional cost and trouble.

If you are happy with the OEM variator, I wouldn't recommend the Malossi unless you are looking for a little more acceleration/ speed.  For me, the Malossi variator kit is worth it.  I will definitely be buying another Malossi variator kit for my Super 9 LC.  At this point, I think my People 50 2T is way faster than my Super 9.

[BettinANDlosing]

Must just be the overrange malossi variator that takes the large weights. O well rollers for this setup lol. Yeah man, i like the people 50 body style better than the super 9, don't tell anyone tho!! Always wanted to make a murdered out people 50, and toss about $1000 on Italian goodies at it. Have people laughing everywhere you drive.

[gosku]

After some extended riding I must say I'm impressed and I think lighter rollers gave me the RPM's I wanted, but the Malossi torsion controller seems to have provided me with very smooth acceleration! And I feel like I have some power left unused in the engine when it comes to top end speed on flat. How do you improve it? Probably need to mess with final gear's teeth amount?

[chaz35]

Yes, I concluded probably leaving some top speed on the table without change in final drive gearing.  I think it's probably a good compromise, because with 50 have very limited HP.  If gear for more top speed, will have less acceleration and from time to time no top speed due to headwind and/ or uphill road.  So, I think final gearing is about right for what we have.  Mine will run at 50mph/ 80kmh fairly easily at part throttle, giving it WOT from time to time to maintain speed.

You can get more top speed by over rev'ng engine, for example if going 50mph at 10,000 revs, wouldn't 12,000 revs give you another 10mph or 60mph for short burst of speed.  But modifying engine to turn 12,000 revs would be a lot of trouble/ $'s and probably ruin bottom power anyway, so I don't want to go there.

As I understand it, BBK doesn't give you any more top speed, still have final gear issue.  BBK would pull up hills better, but the way mine is running now, there are very few places I get slowed down much going up a hill.  Mine will accelerate up most hills.  Cheers