Braking Technique and Skills

[ScooterWolf]

As a new rider to my DT 300 I've noticed that braking takes longer, and given the heavier weight and faster speed, the bike can skid more easily than my Yager. Yesterday I was coming back form a tutoring job in a section of Philly I'm not too familiar with. As I riding down a two lane road -- two going one way, and two the other, one known for its sharp twistys, and a flow of traffic speed 20-30 mph above the post 35, I was taking a sharp turn that ended suddenly at a traffic light moving from Yellow to Red.

I use both of my brakes when I come to a stop, and not letting myself panic I applied strong pressure, but not suddenly, or in a heavy manner. It was a reflexed I'd done a hundred times on my former, smaller scooter, but the DT was probably a 100 lbs heavier. Instantly, I felt the back tire begin to slide out to the left, then straighten out as I let up on the brakes, then re-applied a few times, enough to slow the bike. I went over the white, end-of-the-lane line by about a foot.

I know that 70% of my stopping power is in my front brake, but as I said, I use both of my brakes jointly when I stop. Are here conditions and situations were asymmetrical use of your brakes apply?

(I also discovered that my DT isn't the ABS version)

Second question -- have a lot today.  I've recently starting using my right hand middle finger to hold my right (front) brake controls when I'm at a stop in traffic, or a light. I've noticed that on my DT that if I hold the left (back) brake control it causes my entire frame to vibrate from the engine. By using only my right hand middle finger I have more digits on my throttle, allowing better grip/control on the throttle and a better brake-to-power transition when the light turns Green or the car in front of me allows me to go. It's a big difference in the take off speed from a stopping position.

Does anyone do something similar to this?

-Wolf

[AMAC1680]

As a new rider to my DT 300 I've noticed that braking takes longer, and given the heavier weight and faster speed, the bike can skid more easily than my Yager. Yesterday I was coming back form a tutoring job in a section of Philly I'm not too familiar with. As I riding down a two lane road -- two going one way, and two the other, one known for its sharp twistys, and a flow of traffic speed 20-30 mph above the post 35, I was taking a sharp turn that ended suddenly at a traffic light moving from Yellow to Red.

I use both of my brakes when I come to a stop, and not letting myself panic I applied strong pressure, but not suddenly, or in a heavy manner. It was a reflexed I'd done a hundred times on my former, smaller scooter, but the DT was probably a 100 lbs heavier. Instantly, I felt the back tire begin to slide out to the left, then straighten out as I let up on the brakes, then re-applied a few times, enough to slow the bike. I went over the white, end-of-the-lane line by about a foot.

I know that 70% of my stopping power is in my front break, but as I said, I use both of my brakes jointly when I stop. Are here conditions and situations were asymmetrical use of your brakes apply?

(I also discovered that my DT isn't the ABS version)

Second question -- have a lot today.  I've recently starting using my right hand middle finger to hold my right (front) brake controls when I'm at a stop in traffic, or a light. I've noticed that on my DT that if I hold the left (back) brake control it causes my entire frame to vibrate from the engine. By using only my right hand middle finger I have more digits on my throttle, allowing better grip/control on the throttle and a better brake-to-power transition when the light turns Green or the car in front of me allows me to go. It's a big difference in the take off speed from a stopping position.

Does anyone do something similar to this?

-Wolf

The left brake/vibrate thing happens on a lot of kymcos and is normal.

Please don't tke this wrong but based on this thread and your post about riding in the rain I wonder if you have ever taken a motorcycle safety course.

If you locked up the brakes on the DT it has nothing to do with the brakes, you're going to fast for the situation. With ABS you would avoid the skid but my bet is you would have still stopped beyond the line. If the line was a stopped car you hit him.

It has nothing to do with the weight of the scoot. I'll stop a DT in the same distance from the same speed as a Yager. It's a skill set that's learned by doing. Have you practiced "panic stops" on the DT?

I'm won't give rider instruction over the Internet as that can lead people down dangerous paths. Instructions for what you ask should be done while sitting in the bike.

Good luck and be safe.

AMAC

[ScooterWolf]

Actually, I have taken a safety course, and graduated top of my class with the best score. My decision of not driving in the rain is just my personal preference, not for lack of experience. I've ridden in summer squalls and flash floods. I like to protecting my scooter from bad riding conditions. That's just my style of riding. If I can't scoot somewhere I can take a local train, or our car, so I don't depend upon my scooter as my only mode of transportation, but I ride whenever possible. If the weather looks bad, I won't ride.

The braking problem was related to speed. I was riding on a road where I wasn't familiar with the location of a stop light while coming around a turn. Given the flow of traffic and my own speed it's safe to say I was going too fast. Having only ridden my new scooter for 23 days I'm still getting used to the feel, center of gravity and how she handles. I'm looking for some PLP first chance I get. With my other scooter I had made stops like that dozens of times without the brakes locking up. My DT operated differently. I take how I ride seriously, and was furious at myself for allowing the brakes to lock like that. That's part of why I posted this thread -- is there a better technique, or is it a matter of PLP panic stops practices to get used to my bigger bike? I'm not trying to avoid practicing on my DT, but to expand on my skills.

My real question is more about asymmetrical application of brakes. I generally apply both brakes equally when stopping. I've heard of motorcycle riders who favor front and back brakes in different situations. I was curious if anyone practiced such techniques, and why.

-Wolf

[AMAC1680]

Sounds like you'll be fine with a little more time in "that" saddle.

Yeah most will tell you they use more of one brake than another. I tend to be lighter on the rear brake than the front in most instances but that not a by the book thing.

AMAC

[ScooterWolf]

Thanks AMAC for your honest comments. My real challenge is to find a new parking lot to practice in. The cops are now observing the one I originally used years ago and tend to chase out anyone hanging out, even honest scooter riders like me.

-Wolf

[CROSSBOLT]

I had a Yager and loved it! Love my DT more. Practice with the front brake on an open parking lot with no traffic until you can get that tire to howl. That is just short of wheel lock. Do not relax your grip on the left brake lever if the back wheel slides as that can dump you when it hooks up with the road. Steer into the skid until stopped. Yes, one has to use assymetrical or differential braking since, as you pointed out, more braking done by the front than rear. This requires a harder squeeze on the right lever than the left. Front brake disc is generally larger than the rear and the front usually has more pistons and bigger shoes. All this contributes to the rider dynamic in stopping. However, when you get in that "oh, crap!" mode, it means ya goin' too fast. Your mind MUST be ahead of the situation so you won't need your superior skills to bail you out!

Karl

[ScooterWolf]

Thanks Karl. Great points. I'll be riding the same route today before heading home, and will be sure to watch my speed. Will be searching for a lot this weekend as well.

Do you still have your old Yager?

-Wolf

[bluesin]

http://www.motorcyclegiftshop.com/motorcycle_braking.html

[ScooterWolf]

Good article, bluesin. Thanks for posting. Like the section on motorcycle slang.

Anyone have pointers on how you handle the brake controls while at stop.? I've been using the right hand middle finger to hold the brake controls, while the rest of my digits are on the throttle, ready to add power when a light turns red, or the traffic moves. Pick up and take off are direct and faster.

-Wolf

[AMAC1680]

Good article, bluesin. Thanks for posting. Like the section on motorcycle slang.

Anyone have pointers on how you handle the brake controls while at stop.? I've been using the right hand middle finger to hold the brake controls, while the rest of my digits are on the throttle, ready to add power when a light turns red, or the traffic moves. Pick up and take off are direct and faster.

-Wolf

Over the years it's become second nature to "tap" the levers at a stop. that creates a flashing brake light. Can't tell if it helps or not but I've never been rear ended.

Of the DT when the light turns red you can dust pretty much anyone else around you.

AMAC

[ScooterWolf]

It's addicting too.

When I'm coming around a curve and hit traffic, a light, or stop sign I tend to tap my brakes to signal the guy behind me. I was rear ened once -- at a toll both.
Guy was actually stopped behind me and for some reason stepped on the gas and hit me just as I paid my toll. Guess the bastard couldn't wait. His insurance
paid for the damages, and I'm sure his rates went up. He was a well known sports news-caster in our area.

Still grin when I think of how pissed off he must have been.

-Wolf

[mnpugdog]

Anyone have pointers on how you handle the brake controls while at stop.? I've been using the right hand middle finger to hold the brake controls, while the rest of my digits are on the throttle, ready to add power when a light turns red, or the traffic moves. Pick up and take off are direct and faster.

-Wolf

If I'm at a stoplight where I might roll I do something really simular. Not a fan of the bike shaking with the rear break on but it is what it is.

[2wheelfun]

Never use the front brake going into a turn, or on a slippery surface. You brake before going into a turn and even then only a slight rear braking action is safe if needed. Slippery applies to wet, sandy, paint stripes, leaves or etc. Only apply the front brake when headed straight on dry clean pavement. This is for regular riding, doesn't apply to racing or dirt riding. Also if you find you need to crunch on the front brake too often in my opinion your traveling too fast or too close. There's always the OH sh** moments where nothing but stomping on the brakes apply but stomping on the brakes can worsen the situation under the right circumstances. Always try to have an out, by that I mean enough distance to jump a curb, swerve left or right, speed up, turn into a driveway etc. There's no advice to cover every situation but key principles can avoid getting hit or laying it down.

[CROSSBOLT]

Don't have the Yager, traded it for the DT. 2wheel makes a VITAL point (s) about using that front brake and these points and others are stressed in MSF basic rider course. Listen to MSF instuctors and guys like 2wheel and others on this forum; NOT to mouthy, old rags like I did years ago. The boners that walk up and say, "Yeah, I used tho have a bike but I had to lay 'er down. Used that front brake!"

Karl

[Stig / Major Tom]

Yep, have read that letting off of a skidding rear tire can high-side you when it grabs the road again....they tell me.
Problem is, of course, it is almost instinctual to get off of the brake when you feel the skidding and side slip...


Darn few of us would have the dirt tracking bike skills to instinctively just let the rear hang out there and carry on!

It is tiring to look for sand, gravel, tree branches in corners - even at a very low turn in speed.
Or to travel unfamiliar streets with traffic pushing from behind.
People who fly through "the twisties" make me change to the Food Channel.....

I commute to work maybe 15 miles ea. day over well known city streets before sunriset & afternoons, in all weather.....
And leisure ride & explore country roads at sun up - only. To avoid traffic. Once I am familiar with the roads I'll ride 'em most any time except sun down.

My hi viz gear and riding style & riding times keep me in my comfort zone. Otherwise I keep it parked and change the oils for fun.
Yes, rear braking while stopped transfers the vibes to the scooter. As for the fingers at a stop - our county safety instructor tells us to count to three before moving off from a stop light. I raised my hand and  told him that if I did that I'd be pushed through most intersections by the gum chewing 20-something girl in the F-150 behind me.
So, I do hesitate a moment & check both ways looking for signal running cars....figure if I get rear-ended by the stationary car behind me it won't hurt too much and I can retire on their insurance. So, I don't worry about finger placement or out dragging the cars beside and behind me - more concerned about the ones with my flanks in their sights in the middle of that intersection.
Stig