Clutch slipping?

[MJR]

When my dealer was dragging...I sent an email to getinfo@kymcousa.com and heard back pretty quickly.

That seems to have done the trick as I received a email from a Steven at Kymco USA this morning. Apparently the local rep is on vacation (would have been nice to know from the woman who I called the other day at Kymco that just transferred me to his phone/voicemail). He agreed with my assessment based on my information and just needed to verify with the dealer in addition to his own questions to make sure there isn't another issue. It's nice to know that he will look into it fully and make sure its right. I forwarded all emails received from the service advisor including the photos. Now it's just wait to see what he turns up and getting the parts ordered/replaced. 

[MJR]

Ok just got off the phone with Steven at Kymco, here's what was said. The dark section on the clutch pads is not grease but the clutch burning in as the outer sections are higher loading them there. Next the actual slippage is being caused by excess grease that squeezed between the pulley halves (used for the pulley needle bearings) during assembly. At speed this ended up being flung outward onto the drive belt itself causing the slippage. I was assured that the seals are intact so there should be no further issues. The pulleys, case, and belt will be cleaned. I expressed my concern on the belt and was also assured it will not be a problem but if I should have one they will stand behind it. So I called the dealer and said I would like to come over to have a look for myself while its apart. Tomorrow morning I'll be driving up there (an hour drive) to have a look for myself and with any luck have it back together so I can bring it home. 

[CROSSBOLT]

Is this great, MJR, or what?! Looking forward to hear the final (and happy!) resolution!

Karl

[Stig / Major Tom]

Respectfully....
Have only seen four scooter clutches....do not think they manufacture this part with high spots on the pads.....or that one section needs to burn in..
Seems like a lot of new scoots would be hopping and lurching around...but seems clutches don't do that until a few thousand miles of too light throttle on move off.
As for cleaning an oiled belt....which is the driveshaft of this monster scooter. ...
Maybe so...maybe so.
But would test this scooter as hard as you dare to abuse a 200 mile old scooter.
You've ridden plenty of big scooters....so you'll know what it should feel like.
That warranty is there for solid back up if needed.
I'd hammer it at least a bit for a while in front of dealership.
Best of luck with that beauty.
Stig

[MJR]

Ok so I'm here at the dealer. They have cleaned it all up good and used soap/water on the belt. They have also lightly sanded the clutch shoes. All look great in person, whew what a relief. Here's a few photos. Now just waiting for them to reassemble it and she's coming home after a local ride.

[CROSSBOLT]

All looks good and clean! Ride report from pilot next!

Karl

[MJR]

Ok so I was so disgusted on Saturday I simply didn't feel like posting back up. I took the bike for a test ride (10 miles) and while it was improved it was still slipping on take off but I no longer felt I was taking my own life into my hands to make it through an intersection. I went back and spoke to the advisor who said they would have to call Kymco USA again and he once again suggested that it might be the bike breaking in yet. They had another one I asked him about which he said was new so when I said why don't you ride it to see the difference and received no response. I was a little disgusted and simply felt helpless to make them do it right so I simply collected my bike and left. It was almost like as a scooter owner I wasn't taken completely seriously.

When I got home I unloaded the bike and went for a 40 mile ride with no real change in it. Sunday it sat in the garage. Monday I rode it to work and noticed two additional issues. First at times at low speed there was some fairly loud noise (probably belt slapping) from the CVT. Second if I was rolling along at 10-15 mph, backed off the throttle, and then got back into it lightly there was a serious vibration/shudder (feels like the belt grabbing/slipping rapidly like clutch chatter). Disgusted I sent another email off to Steven at Kymco USA explaining the situation and the fact that the dealer I bought it at was an hour drive away one way.

Steven got back to me late in the suggesting a closer dealer that mostly deals with their ATVs so I made an appointment to drop it off there this Saturday and they won't be able to have a look until Tuesday.

Here's the thing that gets me. Was it the mechanic at the dealer not recommending to Kymco USA that the belt should have been replaced or was it Kymco USA that simply didn't want to spend the $75 (approx. warranty cost) to put a new belt in while it was apart? I can see a manufacturers/distributors point of view on not replacing parts unless they were needed but.

Now I do not know how far this dealer had torn into the problem since only the CVT cover and clutch bell where off when I went to look at it. If it were me (especially how easy this CVT is) I would have pulled it all apart (no mind you I don't know if they did or not) and looked over everything. What I felt is that maybe they only cleaned it without taking the belt off. My impression is the rep feels that the belt should be fine if it's cleaned however my experience says (assuming no more grease is going to come out of the pulley) that the belt should have been replaced because who wants a slipping belt until it wears off the layer that got grease on it.

I'm far from just a scooter owner with all my years in the automotive industry with the majority of them as a dealer mechanic fixing things. Assuming that the grease is no longer a problem I am certain that clean internals and a new belt would solve this issue. There is a lot of load in a small area starting off the line for the belt to handle and even a very small amount of grease on the belt will cause an issue under load. I would prefer they fix it rather than me having to do so (of course at least with me I know what was done though) since it's a new bike.

Problem is the belt slips and then the clutch doesn't engage fully until it stops slipping and spins up the output pulley. I can feel this taking off a moderate throttle, first engagement just over 2,000 rpm, once the road speed comes up if I slightly back out of the throttle I can feel a thud/bump and then the clutch is fully engaged and the bike is fine above that speed/throttle.

[xsel777]

Empathy, mate.

 Sent from my Samsung Note 3 with Tapatalk

[MJR]

Empathy, mate.

Thanks. 

[CROSSBOLT]

Here is my two cents (some of the others can see me winding up!): Kymco USA has not been stingy with parts on warranty issues. BettinandLosin, a serious mech/tech in Portland, OR has assured us, Stig has assured us and there has to be more that have said Kymco USA will send any part(s) the dealer requests on a warranty job. I do not know if either the dealer boss-man or the "mechanic" knows this BUT WE KNOW THIS! This is kinda in Steve's court to tell these dumm-, er, people what the score is but this is typical of dealers and their techs: they don't know how the bikes work, they don't know how to troubleshoot and they sure as heck don't know how to fix them. They will blow smoke up your waistcoat as long as you let them. You are on good footing with the rep, Steve. He is your best friend and wants to see you happy. He probably had to put the big sell on these guys to take on the line so he has to keep them happy, too but not as much as you. I will bet Steve knows about this forum and some of the real enthusiasts here. He also knows, well, that we will blab when things go right as well as when they go sideways. My opinion is when friction material that is porous gets contaminated with grease IT IS SHOT AND SHOULD BE REPLACED. The belt not as much but don't forget the strength fiber can soak up plenty of lube.I THINK THE BELT SHOULD BE REPLACED, TOO!  It did not look from the pictures they removed the clutch assembly. This is easy since once they have the clutch bell off the clutch assy just slides off. Then you can see if there is too much lube in there. You gotta stay on top of this because it will take MONTHS to get this resolved if you don't. It will go better since you got Kymco USA involve early. Give us a blow-by-blow as it happens!

Karl

[MJR]

My opinion is when friction material that is porous gets contaminated with grease IT IS SHOT AND SHOULD BE REPLACED. The belt not as much but don't forget the strength fiber can soak up plenty of lube.I THINK THE BELT SHOULD BE REPLACED, TOO!

Steve didn't dispute that had the clutch shoes ended up with grease on them they should be replaced but as it turns out the dark sections on the shoes were high spot glazing. As I browsed the photos and he explained I see his point on the clutch shoes since they are enclosed in the clutch bell which is a smaller diameter than the driven pulley. Since the grease likely came out of the driven pulley it got on the belt which slung it to the outer reaches of the case. So I think the clutch is fine. You really should feel how violent the grab/slip is coasting at 10 mph and then applying throttle again.

Now with a belt slipping the clutch slips because it's not spinning fast enough to fully engage (can feel the thump when it does). This I'm sure is contributing to glazing of the high spots on the clutch.

Steven told me the same thing the service advisor did that they wanted to clean it all up and try it. If I were the mechanic I would have told them (assuming everything else is ok) to replace the belt. Who wants to tear into it again when you damn well anything made of chemicals will affect it.

Another part of the 3rd in a row Saturday dealing with it dropping the bike off and assuming this other place fixes it one more to pick it up. I'm hoping since this place specializes in ATVs that they have a lot more experience with CVTs.

[Stig / Major Tom]

You also ride the Queen Mother of big N.American scoots ( the "Burgman $11,ooo", I like to call it) so you know how a Big Scoot take off is supposed to feel.
My 11hp LIKE200i is smooth as a Singer Sewing Machine off the line, with very good pull.....and you should have several times that thrill on your MyRoad 700 with 4 X the cc's.
Do not lose heart - that is a great scooter with no history of shortcomings or issues (other than the crazy Asian scooter seat committee) and you will get it right side up shortly.

i had a girl-friend like that once....after just a couple of therapy sessions she was right as rain and a real peach!
It is worth the wait.

(i hope)
Stig

[MJR]

Latest in the saga. I dropped the bike off out in Corona at a dealer that mostly sells Kymco side by sides and Lance/SYM scooters/bikes. I walked in through the shop and no one was around so walked up front and poked my head out the front door. Found this Chukar hanging about outside, kinda cool seeing one up close. Usually only seem them out in the desert so kinda surprised to see one hanging out next to the freeway. The guy there said it was cool as it hangs about and wanders into the shop occasionally so they feed it sometimes.





Then the guy appeared and asked if I was they guy dropping off a bike to have looked at, why yes I said. I spoke with him for a while and unlike the guy at Bert's actually seemed interested in helping solve my problem. I gave him a letter I had typed up explaining the whole situation. I then unloaded the bike and showed him how it was slipping. He said he Kymco had always been good to deal with and hadn't been afraid to put parts (doesn't explain my experience thus far but) in to fix something like CROSSBOLT said.

So I'm very hopeful this issue will be resolved soon and I can get back to riding along with thoughts of what upgrades/accessories I want to do to the scoot. I've already ordered some titanium color Dimotiv brake levers which look very nice, have 6 position (stock is 4 and not close enough) adjustment, and are suppose to reduce effort through a better leverage design which will be very nice as the effort required is higher than my Burgman 650's.

[MJR]

And so it continues. Got a call back from Corona. Apparently the regular rep Chip is back from vacation. I received a call yesterday from the dealer and after he spoke with Kymco USA they feel I should take the bike to Riverside because while the dealer in Corona sells Kymco it's just ATV's not scooters (not that theres anyway that the CVT in a ATV is different functionally from a scooter).

I honestly at this point feel that Kymco USA isn't really interested in fixing my scooter.

So today I leave work early to ride over to Corona, park my Burgman 650, ride the MyRoad over to Riverside, and then thankfully the guy in Corona offered me a ride back to his shop so I can ride home. The guy in Riverside said guess what? He is busy and won't be able to look at it until May 10th (Tuesday). Wow that's the third dealer I've dropped it off at that can't look at it until a Tuesday (and they are not all closed on Monday). Seeing as I have no choice at this point it will be more time I am without my brand new scooter.

Next option if this fails is maybe to try contacting Kymco in Taiwan though I'm not sure what influence they have over the distributor here. After that I'll have to replace the parts they seem reluctant to that will fix the bike and file a small claims lawsuit against them.

The solution is simple, if grease is still getting on the pulleys find out where, fix it, clean it up, and put a new belt on it.
If there is no new grease leaking degrease the pulleys again good and replace the belt.

I can't tell you how incredibly stupid/frustrating/stressful this has become.

[Stig / Major Tom]

My bike cost 1/3 what your scoot cost - but I have some idea how you feel.
Took a few months, and several trips to my dealer,  for my dealer to replace the throttle body in my LIKE200i .....and I spent much of that time throwing new parts at it trying to fix it myself....even though it was under warranty.
With the help of Crossbolts (he mailed me his KYMCO diagnostic tool) I proved my final theory that the TPS had failed (after reading of a motorcyclist having the same symptoms )....
KYMCO USA helped by making the dealer buy the same diagnostic tool - so he could see the same thing that I was seeing. Then they popped in the new throttle body and all was well.

During the months that this was going on --- I said the heck with Kymco and bought a new Honda NSS300.

I was ready to move up - and ready to ride again!
But you've got your Burg, so you'll be OK....if you don't go Postal.
We're rooting for ya!
Stig