Hard Start Problem...

[maninbabylon]

Ok, I have a 2009 Grand Vista 250 and I bought it used and have done a bunch of work and replaced a lot of parts. I'm finally at the point where I can start it only if I jump start it.  I replaced the battery with the right battery with 180 cranking amps. It's much batter but still doesn't quite get it. If I jump start it with the CRV it usually starts right up after a few tries. Is this a timing issue...?  Maybe a tooth or two off...? I will check tomorrow but I was hoping for some feed back.  Thank you. This forum rocks.

[hypophthalmus]

How's it running once you get it started?

Does it sound like it's trying to start with the battery?

If everything's fine once it's started, it sounds most probable that the new battery is undercharged or bad. Or maybe there's a bad/corroded connection somewhere between the battery and the starter.

Quoting some good advice for checking the new battery on a similar thread:

The best way to check the condition of a 12v battery is to LOAD test it. In order to do this, you should remove the battery and charge it up all the way. You should get between 13 and 14 VDC. Let it sit over night, preferably in a warm place. Then check it again with a multi meter. If the battery is good then you should still get the same as before. If it passes that test you can take it any of the chain auto parts stores and they can do a load test on it, for free. If it passes that test, then you have a good battery and it's time to look else where for the problem. Keep us posted as to what you find. If it's not the battery, then follow Karl's advise and we'll give you step 2.

[maninbabylon]

The update is... the timing was 180 out so I finally set that correctly. However, it's still a hard start, but runs great after it's started. If the battery is fully charged at 13.01 it will start the scooter. but once I reach where I'm going it just doesn't have the same kick and I am assuming my charging system isn't working properly. The battery is a good battery. When it turns over it has a hollow metal sounding like cranking sound if that makes any sense. And if it doesn't quite get past the compression stroke on some attempts it has a winding zzz sound. It has a new starter so that is working fine.

[hypophthalmus]

The valve timing was off 180? It actually ran in that condition? And didn't self-destruct?

Or do you mean the ignition timing, and the flywheel was 180 degrees off? In which case the spark plug was firing at the begining of the compression and exhaust strokes.... again, it ran?

The charging system is easy to test, just measure the voltage when it's running and when you rev it.

[hypophthalmus]

Thinking about it more, if the ignition timing was off 180 and it did actually run, I imagine it would be knocking very badly?

[maninbabylon]

Maybe you can help explain further... so, i put the flywheel at the "T" for TDC and then set the valve timing gear was set as instructed. Big hole up and little holes even with the head. It would not crank. So, i turned the flywheel 1 full rotation and then reset the valve gear and then it starts hard but runs great afterwards.

[hypophthalmus]

I'm a bit confused.

Originally you were saying that it would start, but it would need the assistance of the car battery to do it?

One full rotation would be 360 degrees, not 180. Is that what you meant? Oh, but that would be 360 degrees on the flywheel and 180 on the camshaft?

If that's what you did, then you didn't actually change anything. The flywheel is at the T mark (and causes the ignition to fire) twice: with the big hole up, and down.

You set the valve clearances after you set the timing, correct?

Edit: I also just realized that the ignition timing can't actually be off separate from the valve timing. Whoops.

[maninbabylon]

Yes 360 on the flywheel and 180 on the camshaft... yes, now it will start using a jump start from the car. Fires right up usually on the first or second try. And, if my battery is fully charged to 13.03 or more it will start, but it doesn't turn over as strong as if jumping from the car... and if it doesn't catch the first two tries it will just run the battery down trying.

[hypophthalmus]

Okay. In that case, the timing was fine and there's some other reason it started cranking.

Again, did you set the valve clearances after adjusting this?

Assuming that's good, I'm still suspicious something about the battery or the connection must be at fault, since effectively swapping it out with the car battery fixes the problem. Did you load test it?

[maninbabylon]

Your instincts are right on... it turns out I received a second Bad Brand New Battery that wasn't putting out the right amperage. I must say, it is becoming all too common receiving bad brand new stuff these days.  Also, the valves did need adjusting.