USA to require ABS on motorcycles

[AMAC1680]

I’ve read so many times how “abs has saved me a few times”.
To that I answer “you don’t have a equipment issue but you have a skill issue”.
Modern cars have made driving minndless so I guess bikes are next.

Tech good until it’s autonomous vehicles. Bet many here that love abs don’t care for those even if they are safer than human driven cars.

AMAC

[jeeves]

[Forbes1964]

I’ve read so many times how “abs has saved me a few times”.
To that I answer “you don’t have a equipment issue but you have a skill issue”.
Modern cars have made driving minndless so I guess bikes are next.

Tech good until it’s autonomous vehicles. Bet many here that love abs don’t care for those even if they are safer than human driven cars.

AMAC

I agree that Autonomous vehicles are OVERKILL . But Even most PROFESSIONAL drivers can’t match ABS in an automobile. When ABS was relatively new, several reputable magazines had professional drivers compare stopping distances under various conditions and circumstances with and without ABS.  The ONLY case where some professional drivers were able to beat ABS slightly was in straight line stopping on perfectly dry pavement. Abs simply pumps and releases the brakes much more swiftly than ANY human could do. I believe that Technology SHOULD supplement skill, not replace it. Also (in cars) traction control allows a car to get out of a place where it would simply be impossible otherwise. Example if one wheel is on mud or ice. But the other is on solid ground. Not sure what benefit it would have on a scooter or motorcycle.


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[Stig / Major Tom]

I like that thing some KTM bikes have: when you brake hard in a corner, instead of this standing up the bike...which makes you run wide and off the road...this system lets you brake while maintaining the lean, and your line around the curve.
Say, you're paying attention. ..but a meteor drops in the corner.
Stuff like that.
Stig

[CROSSBOLT]

Meteor drops are really, really bad. Really bad....oh, the humanity!

[jeeves]

I like that thing some KTM bikes have: when you brake hard in a corner, instead of this standing up thr bike...which makes you run wide and off the road...this system lets you brake while maintaining the lean, and your line around the curve.
Say, you're paying attention. ..but a meteor drops in the corner.
Stuff like that.
Stig

Yes, a friend of mine had a KTM 1190 with cornering ABS.
You can use is leaning into a corner without worrying you are gonna loose the bike.

[Stig / Major Tom]

Yes, a friend of mine had a KTM 1198 with cornering ABS.
You can use is leaning into a corner without worrying you are gonna loose the bike.



 

Yep, staying in the corner while hard braking beats the heck out of visiting the rocks on the berm!
A lot of local HD wrecks are one vehicle, leaving the road. One wonders if that $15 addition to the ECU would have helped that guy, that night.

Stig

[jeeves]

Tried the KTM 1190.
That thing is brutal, 150hp, feels light,  like you have a 600ccm bike under you, great brakes, doesn't really matter what gear you're in, it just goes.
They put all the electronic aids on it because it would be very hard to ride it without em.
Makes you do things that are not legal, all the time...
[emoji48][emoji16]

[Forbes1964]

I like that thing some KTM bikes have: when you brake hard in a corner, instead of this standing up thr bike...which makes you run wide and off the road...this system lets you brake while maintaining the lean, and your line around the curve.
Say, you're paying attention. ..but a meteor drops in the corner.
Stuff like that.
Stig

Bro. I love the way to bring humor and wit into these discussions. [emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]


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[hypophthalmus]

Forbes's master cylinder change is a good example I think of some need for regulations.

Not motorcycle related, but an example I always think of is lead paint. Until 1978, we were still covering our buildings with neurotoxins 25% of the time. There's no good way of dealing with it later. You'd THINK people would stop doing it on their own accord, but it took regulations to finally put an end to it.

My problem with ABS is that it tends to be locked in. I can access most information inexpensively on my GM minivan with a cheap OBDII reader and cheap software. But I can't activate the ABS pump without their expensive proprietary tool.

Motorcycles are typically much worse, and you need their expensive proprietary tool to access ANY information.

If they're going to mandate this, they also need to mandate a physical switch to cycle the pump, and a switch to disable ABS completely (manufacturer doesn't get to decide if I take my bike offroad). But they aren't going to.

Also, no already existing equipment on my still-in-production bike. They've made changes EXTREMELY conservatively, which was a selling point for me. So late 80's technology only.

[klaviator]

I like that thing some KTM bikes have: when you brake hard in a corner, instead of this standing up the bike...which makes you run wide and off the road...this system lets you brake while maintaining the lean, and your line around the curve.
Say, you're paying attention. ..but a meteor drops in the corner.
Stuff like that.
Stig

Cornering ABS has exactly ZERO impact on whether or not a bike will tend to stand up in a corner and want to run wide.  Cornering ABS keeps your wheels from locking up and maintaining traction if you brake to hard while in a curve.  Most of the bikes I have owned did not stand up under braking in a curve, some did.  I think the biggest factor in that tendency is tires.  My EX500 was perfectly neutral while braking in a curve with the stock tires.  When I put on some different tires it would try to stand up.  Switching tires again made the bike neutral again.

ABS, cornering ABS, Off road ABS, traction control, all good stuff but can only go so far.  It isn't a cure for stupid.  Go into a curve and hit some gravel and all that stuff won't save you.  learning how to ride your motorcycle/ scooter might.  There are already too many people out there riding bikes who don't know what they are doing.  I'm afraid that all this new technology will just make that problem worse. 

I'm not saying that this new technology is bad, just that it also has it's drawbacks.  What happens when your ABS fails while you are braking on a wet road and you don't have a clue how to use your brakes without ABS? 

ABS is reliable and never fails?  I'm afraid not.  It happened to a friend on his BMW R1200GS.  When he researched the issue he found it was not that uncommon.

[Forbes1964]

Cornering ABS has exactly ZERO impact on whether or not a bike will tend to stand up in a corner and want to run wide.  Cornering ABS keeps your wheels from locking up and maintaining traction if you brake to hard while in a curve.  Most of the bikes I have owned did not stand up under braking in a curve, some did.  I think the biggest factor in that tendency is tires.  My EX500 was perfectly neutral while braking in a curve with the stock tires.  When I put on some different tires it would try to stand up.  Switching tires again made the bike neutral again.

ABS, cornering ABS, Off road ABS, traction control, all good stuff but can only go so far.  It isn't a cure for stupid.  Go into a curve and hit some gravel and all that stuff won't save you.  learning how to ride your motorcycle/ scooter might.  There are already too many people out there riding bikes who don't know what they are doing.  I'm afraid that all this new technology will just make that problem worse. 

I'm not saying that this new technology is bad, just that it also has it's drawbacks.  What happens when your ABS fails while you are braking on a wet road and you don't have a clue how to use your brakes without ABS? 

ABS is reliable and never fails?  I'm afraid not.  It happened to a friend on his BMW R1200GS.  When he researched the issue he found it was not that uncommon.

None of the technology is a cure for stupid. However, it’s MUCH more likely that an average or even good driver will encounter a situation where ABS helps than one where ABS fails in the middle of a braking event involving a totally unskilled driver . When ABS fails, it defaults to regular brakes. And a warning light comes on. Since most drivers have little knowledge, they think that brake failure is imminent and will drive as such.
I do agree that ABS testing access needs to be standardized like engine OBD . But ironically, it will take Government regulation to make that happen. With cars, prior to 1996, each company had their own connectors and test equipment. But now ALL cars have the same connector. And ABS codes are also access through that connector. . Personally, I think that scooters should have the same access connector .


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[Viper254]

It's an interesting concept and will undoubtedly affect the US in a different way to how it took effect in Europe. Our requirement for combined brakes (under 125cc) or ABS (over 125cc) came in as a package of other requirements, which effectively phased out carburettors in favour of fuel injection.

The side effect is that a number of manufacturers/importers left the European market rather than comply.

I don't really have a horse in this race. ABS is good and I do with I had it in the car sometimes, but don't have much experience with it on bikes.

We had about a 50% price rise in learner-legal bikes when the Euro 4 regs came in, but it made little/no difference to the bikes that aren't learner legal. To be fair, forcing some of the cruddy manufacturers from the market may not have been that bad a thing.

[hypophthalmus]

What's the rationale in forcing a phase out of carburetors?

Why would you ever require linked brakes?

What does learner legal mean?

[klaviator]

What's the rationale in forcing a phase out of carburetors?

Why would you ever require linked brakes?

What does learner legal mean?

Carburetors are most likely an emissions issue. 

Requiring linked brakes shows that the Eurocrats are suffering from industrial strength stupidity and know nothing about motorcycles/scooters.

Learner legal has to do with tiered licensing.