Diagnosing problems without a dealer

[MJR]

Also, sensors values can be within spec while there's still some issue. For example, a dead spot on the TPS.

That was the one example where the tool was really beneficial.

The FSM has the resistance range a TPS has and a multimeter it would be easy to find slowly opening the throttle and watching for sudden changes in resistance or going open circuit. There are three codes related to a TPS possible also. Vacuum leaks can be found with a spray bottle of water.

[JJJoseph]

You guys are all very intelligent and capable, and you've all done amazing things, but you're not helping the discussion topic!  For example, one reply was all about dealing with the Kymco dealer. And this was after I went to great lengths explaining that there is NO KYMCO DEALER here. So it's no use telling me how to deal with a Kymco dealer.

Next, there's excellent details about fixing the problems using the Kymco shop manual.  Those remedies require TRAINING. I thought I said that I don't know how to do this and training was required.  So I don't need to know what the experts do, I need training on how to use diagnostics e-tools. 

It doesn't help me to read about how smart you are.  I appreciate that you're really bright guys who can figure stuff out with a multi-meter. That's no help. 

I'm trying to figure out how to keep a fuel-injected Kymco going WITHOUT a dealer anywhere within a hundred miles, and without all you real smart guys as next-door neighbors so I can ask you what to do next :-)

Can we get back to the original question: How to maintain/diagnose a new-gen Kymco without a dealer anywhere close by using some kind of OBD-type diagnostic tool? There must be OBD tools somewhere that can read Kymco faults, and there must be some way to learn how to use them.

Thanks!

[eamartin]

Stig mentioned that the Kymco diagnostic tool runs about $250.  Would that be something to explore?

[MJR]

My advise don't buy a fuel injected scoot if there isn't a dealer who can fix it for you. Buy a brand that you can have a dealer near you to work on it. Good luck.

[CROSSBOLT]

Re-read your diatribe and focused on you keeping an EFI scoot with no dealer AND having diagnostics. Bing! I think I get it, now! The way without forking over <250 bucks for the tool is banggod.com OBS-II Bluetooth reader thingy which would link to an app on phone or tablet. Oops! This will require you to figure out the wires on the three hole connector for the Kymco tool. Sorry, I don't think we can train you to do that on here. I am at a loss on how to help which I really want to help you.

Went back to the beginning of your thread. WHERE DO I GET THE KYMCO TOOL IF I HAVE NO DEALER? That is the question, right? Kymcopartsmonster.com is a dealer that is selling parts to nearly the whole nation. He can get the tool! And send it to you! Want the part number?

Part #3620A-LEB2-E00 that is thirty six twenty alpha-lima echo bravo two-echo zero zero. Dint want "oh" and zero interchanged!

We heard your hoof-beats and tried to tell you they wuz zebras! Sorry, JJ. Please forgive....

[JJJoseph]

Went back to the beginning of your thread. WHERE DO I GET THE KYMCO TOOL IF I HAVE NO DEALER? That is the question, right? Kymcopartsmonster.com is a dealer that is selling parts to nearly the whole nation. He can get the tool! And send it to you! Want the part number?

Good!  We're making progress.  I think I've found the tool with your help (see attached), now the challenge (and all Kymco riders will face this sooner or later) is: "how do I learn how to use the tool?"  I've found YT videos describing the tool, and it looks useful, BUT there's no instructions on using it." Example: Does it work on all models of Kymco?  Does it have a manual in English?  How do the connectors work? Can the software be updated? Etc . . .

[JJJoseph]

My advise don't buy a fuel injected scoot if there isn't a dealer who can fix it for you. Buy a brand that you can have a dealer near you to work on it. Good luck.

Hi MJR- ALL motorcycles are EFI now, same as all cars. The difference now is you can't  maintain either unless you have a dealer nearby or you learn how to use these new tools.

[CROSSBOLT]

Good!  We're making progress.  I think I've found the tool with your help (see attached), now the challenge (and all Kymco riders will face this sooner or later) is: "how do I learn how to use the tool?"  I've found YT videos describing the tool, and it looks useful, BUT there's no instructions on using it." Example: Does it work on all models of Kymco?  Does it have a manual in English?  How do the connectors work? Can the software be updated? Etc . . .

The answer or more corectly, part of the answer is in the service manual. There are pictures in color of each feature of the tool and its program. It is really quite simple in operation and I don't think you can really screw up anything by hitting the wrong button or button push out of sequence. I'm saying if I can figger it out and not destroy the brain in my bike so can you. I will offer to "coach" you if you get one and even over the phone if you desire. I think the service manual is a good idea but not really mandatory because there is a wealth of information NOT in there and some of the information is incorrect. Most all on this forum have some kind of handle on the systems and features and where the Kymco skeletons are!

[Forbes1964]

I think you may have missed some of what the others were trying to say. —-If you have a service manual and are somewhat mechanically inclined, you indeed can fix many EFI problems without a specialty tool, special training, or super abilities.
But the diagnostic process must be more systematic rather than simple guessing.
Example: if an EFI equipped scooter won’t start, it’s for the same reasons that a carbureted scooter won’t start. It’s missing ignition, or fuel, or the engine has a mechanical problem such as low compression. The solution lies in finding what’s missing and why.

IF the check engine light is on and flashes at a certain sequence, it’s a good starting point. The check engine light is like a built in diagnostic scanner. Most of the time it involves measuring voltage, or resistance In wiring or component. Then you can go from there. So a multimeter and a test light are your most useful tools. A faulty sensor or component can usually be found by either measuring it directly or by measuring the circuits leading to it.
 
No start but No code? It still usually boils down to things you can often check yourself. Yes, it will require reading and learning. But you don’t need to learn everything. Just the area indicated by the code or by what’s missing.

If you do not have the nerve to touch it, often a motorcycle, or scooter mechanic will be willing to tackle it even if it’s not his brand because there are similarities between all brands. If he can get the specs, he can often fix it . It just takes him more time.

Finally, most brands have common problems. Once you ask around, you can usually start your diagnostic process with those common areas of failure.
Is it more difficult to DIAGNOSE an EFI equipped scooter without proper diagnostic tools? Yes. But it’s usually doable. Just don’t panic. Be systematic rather than just throwing stuff at it.



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[JJJoseph]

But the diagnostic process must be more systematic rather than simple guessing.
Example: if an EFI equipped scooter won’t start, it’s for the same reasons that a carbureted scooter won’t start. It’s missing ignition, or fuel, or the engine has a mechanical problem such as low compression. The solution lies in finding what’s missing and why.
No start but No code? It still usually boils down to things you can often check yourself. Yes, it will require reading and learning. But you don’t need to learn everything. Just the area indicated by the code or by what’s missing.

I don't think we're getting anywhere.  A standard OBD2 output lists 4,000 universal diagnostic codes.  They're very precise in order to eliminate guesswork.  The codes are stored in memory and retrieved by the mechanic by plugging in the OBD tool. Are you suggesting that the diagnostics are unimportant, that guesswork (i.e looking it up in a service manual) is actually the correct method? That looks like what you're saying. Correct me if I'm wrong.

often a motorcycle, or scooter mechanic will be willing to tackle it even if it’s not his brand because there are similarities between all brands

Motorcycle mechanics won't touch an EFI machine without the matching diagnostic tool.  Absent a Kymco dealer, I'll need to have the Kymco diagnostic tool in order to get my Kymco serviced at a Triumph dealer, for example.  If the Kymco tool is  non-standard, I'll need to bring a "How-to" manual with the tool.

[Forbes1964]

I’m an auto mechanic. And you are over complicating things. A dedicated manufacturers machine simply guides us in a particular direction. Also The cycle trouble codes are much more limited in scope than a late model car. . There are only a limited number of codes that apply to any individual cycle. The process is relatively simple. You retrieve the DTC (code) and look up it’s explanation. Then the manual will have a pinpoint test. The test will usually consist of a flow chart. The manual often also consists of a symptom chart and relevant tests for problems without DTC. A typical test will step by step take you through a process with the next step being determined by the results in the current step. It’s the EXACT SAME process that we take at a dealership. A dedicated scan tool simply speeds up the process. But reading codes and following the proper pinpoint test will get you to the same place, just slower. Once you know how YOUR scooter works, diagnosis is really not super complicated in most cases.

In the no start scenario you mentioned, if an engine is in sound mechanical condition and it has good fuel pressure, then there only a few sensors that operate the spark and injector. The DTC will send you the proper direction example: crank sensor, cam sensor, injector, coil, plug, the wiring to those sensors, computer. If you’re getting spark, then concentrate on fuel and vice versa.
If you don’t have the basic aptitude or patience, leave it alone. However, even in small Tallahassee, our kymco dealer will work on anything except the super cheap , low quality Chinese scooters . If you’re not comfortable with that, then it may be best to buy a scooter that has a local dealer who repairs it.


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[hypophthalmus]

I don't think we're getting anywhere.  A standard OBD2 output lists 4,000 universal diagnostic codes.  They're very precise in order to eliminate guesswork.  The codes are stored in memory and retrieved by the mechanic by plugging in the OBD tool. Are you suggesting that the diagnostics are unimportant, that guesswork (i.e looking it up in a service manual) is actually the correct method? That looks like what you're saying. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Understanding how the systems work comes first.

If you can't follow the flowcharts in the manual, the codes aren't going to be that helpful anyways. The codes and other ECU data are simply additional tools to make your life easier and help you decide what you're going to test.

And there's plenty of times where there will be no codes, or misleading codes. Or the code might tell you that there is a problem, but not suggest where to look for it.

And, as others have pointed out a few times, you don't need an external tool to read the codes on these bikes. You simply look at the blinks and cross-reference the manual.

Motorcycle mechanics won't touch an EFI machine without the matching diagnostic tool.  Absent a Kymco dealer, I'll need to have the Kymco diagnostic tool in order to get my Kymco serviced at a Triumph dealer, for example.  If the Kymco tool is  non-standard, I'll need to bring a "How-to" manual with the tool.

On the contrary, I've heard many motorcycle mechanics don't bother to get the diagnostic tool, when they really should.

[Forbes1964]

Again, most kymco scooters will produce a code that you can access without a tool. Then you read the meaning of that code inna manual and follow the pinpoint test step by step.


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[Forbes1964]

Understanding how the systems work comes first.

If you can't follow the flowcharts in the manual, the codes aren't going to be that helpful anyways. The codes and other ECU data are simply additional tools to make your life easier and help you decide what you're going to test.

And there's plenty of times where there will be no codes, or misleading codes. Or the code might tell you that there is a problem, but not suggest where to look for it.

And, as others have pointed out a few times, you don't need an external tool to read the codes on these bikes. You simply look at the blinks and cross-reference the manual.

On the contrary, I've heard many motorcycle mechanics don't bother to get the diagnostic tool, when they really should.

Even us at the dealer use the codes as a starting point. If it says Pxxxx crank sensor circuit fault, the test will likely have us step by step test the sensor, circuits to and from the sensor for proper power, ground, and resistance, to make sure there are no open circuits, shorts or unwanted voltage. The tests are not always clear. But in most cases of common failures they will lead us in the right direction. But a person who’s scared of fuel injection and intimidated by it will often have a SELF IMPOSED mental block and will often be unable to know where to start. He probably should leave it alone . Not because it’s too difficult, but because he’s too intimidated to logically go through the process.


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[Stig / Major Tom]

Getting lost here.
You have an EFI Kymco and are asking how to keep it serviced without dealer support?
OR, you don't have an EFI KYMCO ....but want to buy one?

Stig