Author Topic: Diagnosing problems without a dealer  (Read 10480 times)

MJR

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1141
    • View Profile
Re: Diagnosing problems without a dealer
« Reply #30 on: November 26, 2018, 02:50:50 AM »
The topic description should have been "where to buy a Kymco factory scan tool and how to use it?". Yes its in the post but we have given him good answers to his actual topic question of diagnosing a EFI Kymco scooter without a dealer which was a part of his orginal question but he has fixated on having a scan tool even though he aludes that he himself does not feel confident in how to use it or possibly in diagnosing the bike himself.

As I stated a scan tool isn't necessary nor does it pinpoint the exact problem only what the ECU perceives as the problem which requires further testing/diagnostics in some cases. These codes can be displayed over the check engine light and the description can be found in the FSM without having to spend money on a scan tool. Now the factory service manual provides a wealth of information for diagnosing problems (including using a scan tool or not) which I think is essential for anyone who is going to work on the bike owner or repair shop. Yet I have been rebuffed for trying to help.

Also he throws out a list of some claimed 4,000 codes for a OBD II diagnostic system standard which to my knowledge only applies to automobiles per government regulations first started in 1991 in California with the OBD I standard and then to OBD II in 1996 in all the US. Other manufacturers like motorcycles might use some of these codes but as I said I do not know of any requirement for them to do so or share a common interface. Second in the case of my Suzuki Burman 650's and Kymco MyRoad 700i the list of available codes is extremely limited because motorcycles have such basic fuel injection systems compared to automobiles. In the case of my Suzuki Burgman 650's the total available codes number 25 possible with 8 of those being for its electronic CVT. The Kymco MyRoad 700i has only a total number of available codes of 26.

Also of note is in the case of my Suzuki it does not store codes in memory and clears itself within 3 seconds of the key being turned off. So if the problem was ok (intermittent) when you turned the key back on you would not have a code to read. The Suzuki has a connector under the seat that when you jumper two wires can display the codes on the odometer. The Kymco the ECU per the service manual will clear the code if the check engine light flashes out the code 4 times and it's not active (intermittent). Example my MyRoad stalled on me and flashed out the code (#2 crank sensor), it self cleared, when the key was turned on again 5-10 seconds later there was no code until I cranked it over because it wasn't looking for the crank sensor until then.

I have factory scan tools for Chrysler, Dodge, Jeep I use but mostly for other systems they are needed for like ABS, Airbag, SKIM sentry chip programmed keys to start the vehicle, or programming the ECU for various reasons. But motorcycle systems are so outdated compared to automotive systems which are integrated with each other vs the separate stand alone systems of motorcycles like automobiles were in the 1980's.

If you do not feel confident in working on a EFI motorcycle/scooter that's fine and there is no shame in that. If don't want to work on it then buying another brand motorcycle/scooter which has a dealer local to you that can like Honda, Kawasaki, Yamaha,  etc... would be best.

If you want to buy the factory Kymco scan tool you will likely have to by it through a authorized Kymco dealer only unless you can find that the actual manufacturer of the tool sells it. This is due to licensing requirements from the vehicle manufacturer and any proprietary information involved in communication protocols.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2018, 03:09:49 AM by MJR »
'03 Clipper Yellow Honda Reflex
'03 Coast Cyan Atlantic 500
'14 White MyRoad 700i
'09 Mirage White Burgman 650
'06 Oort Gray Burgman 650 project
'05 Sonic Silver Burgman 650 project
'03 Space Blue Burgman 650, rebuilt/upgraded CVT w/Polish adapter
'03 Space Blue Burgman 650 parts bike

Forbes1964

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 944
    • View Profile
Re: Diagnosing problems without a dealer
« Reply #31 on: November 26, 2018, 10:43:57 AM »
The topic description should have been "where to buy a Kymco factory scan tool and how to use it?". Yes its in the post but we have given him good answers to his actual topic question of diagnosing a EFI Kymco scooter without a dealer which was a part of his orginal question but he has fixated on having a scan tool even though he aludes that he himself does not feel confident in how to use it or possibly in diagnosing the bike himself.

As I stated a scan tool isn't necessary nor does it pinpoint the exact problem only what the ECU perceives as the problem which requires further testing/diagnostics in some cases. These codes can be displayed over the check engine light and the description can be found in the FSM without having to spend money on a scan tool. Now the factory service manual provides a wealth of information for diagnosing problems (including using a scan tool or not) which I think is essential for anyone who is going to work on the bike owner or repair shop. Yet I have been rebuffed for trying to help.

Also he throws out a list of some claimed 4,000 codes for a OBD II diagnostic system standard which to my knowledge only applies to automobiles per government regulations first started in 1991 in California with the OBD I standard and then to OBD II in 1996 in all the US. Other manufacturers like motorcycles might use some of these codes but as I said I do not know of any requirement for them to do so or share a common interface. Second in the case of my Suzuki Burman 650's and Kymco MyRoad 700i the list of available codes is extremely limited because motorcycles have such basic fuel injection systems compared to automobiles. In the case of my Suzuki Burgman 650's the total available codes number 25 possible with 8 of those being for its electronic CVT. The Kymco MyRoad 700i has only a total number of available codes of 26.

Also of note is in the case of my Suzuki it does not store codes in memory and clears itself within 3 seconds of the key being turned off. So if the problem was ok (intermittent) when you turned the key back on you would not have a code to read. The Suzuki has a connector under the seat that when you jumper two wires can display the codes on the odometer. The Kymco the ECU per the service manual will clear the code if the check engine light flashes out the code 4 times and it's not active (intermittent). Example my MyRoad stalled on me and flashed out the code (#2 crank sensor), it self cleared, when the key was turned on again 5-10 seconds later there was no code until I cranked it over because it wasn't looking for the crank sensor until then.

I have factory scan tools for Chrysler, Dodge, Jeep I use but mostly for other systems they are needed for like ABS, Airbag, SKIM sentry chip programmed keys to start the vehicle, or programming the ECU for various reasons. But motorcycle systems are so outdated compared to automotive systems which are integrated with each other vs the separate stand alone systems of motorcycles like automobiles were in the 1980's.

If you do not feel confident in working on a EFI motorcycle/scooter that's fine and there is no shame in that. If don't want to work on it then buying another brand motorcycle/scooter which has a dealer local to you that can like Honda, Kawasaki, Yamaha,  etc... would be best.

If you want to buy the factory Kymco scan tool you will likely have to by it through a authorized Kymco dealer only unless you can find that the actual manufacturer of the tool sells it. This is due to licensing requirements from the vehicle manufacturer and any proprietary information involved in communication protocols.
MJR : I think you pretty much summed it up. We were attempting to show that a lot of  diagnostics can be done using the check engine light produced codes , a service manual, and a basic multimeter if the person has a basic grasp of how to follow troubleshooting instructions. And the gentleman seemed to be totally intimidated because he seems to have over complicated things. 55 is a long way from 4000. Even so, even with the most complex automobile, the only relevant codes are the ones used by that particular manufacturer. And of them, the only relevant ones are the ones that are present during the issue being diagnosed. But if a person is totally intimidated by the prospect of servicing any piece of equipment, their best prospect is to purchase one that has local support if only for the piece of mind. Otherwise, they’d worry themselves into a frenzy over what MIGHT happen.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
2009 Xciting 250

CROSSBOLT

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7763
  • West Tennessee, USA
    • View Profile
Re: Diagnosing problems without a dealer
« Reply #32 on: November 26, 2018, 03:57:25 PM »
What you guys said!
Karl

Three motorcycles 1960-1977 (restored a 1955 BSA)
Agility 50
Yager 200i
Downtown 300i
Navy tech, Ships Engineer, pilot and aircraft mechanic

JJJoseph

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 892
  • Kymco Sento
    • View Profile
Re: Diagnosing problems without a dealer
« Reply #33 on: November 26, 2018, 10:46:56 PM »
But if a person is totally intimidated by the prospect of servicing any piece of equipment, their best prospect is to purchase one that has local support if only for the piece of mind.

OMG! The scooter psychologists have taken over here!  What it boils down to is "For peace of mind, don't buy the EFI Kymco".  I like my 2006 carbureted Kymco, so I thought maybe I could live with a new 2018 EFI Kymco.  You've convinced me that, without a Kymco dealer, it's a horribly complicated machine, and I'd be better off with a different make. I'm sorry I even asked the question.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2018, 10:52:57 PM by JJJoseph »

Forbes1964

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 944
    • View Profile
Re: Diagnosing problems without a dealer
« Reply #34 on: November 26, 2018, 11:09:33 PM »
It seems as if you are being argumentative. We TRIED to convey the idea that diagnosis of a fuel injected kymco is somewhat more involved than a carburetor. It’s more difficult without a scanner. But it’s not impossible by any means. But for every method we suggest (often based on our experience), you are seemingly giving us reasons why it won’t work. So that’s why I stated that it may be best to get one that has a dealership nearby. But again we are simply trying to say that in most cases a dealer is not required if you have a service manual , a few simple tools such as a multi meter , and the ability to follow a diagnostic test. If so, you CAN perform most diagnostics.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
2009 Xciting 250

CROSSBOLT

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7763
  • West Tennessee, USA
    • View Profile
Re: Diagnosing problems without a dealer
« Reply #35 on: November 27, 2018, 12:25:40 PM »
....And considering most dealers, so far, have displayed total incompetence with nearly all models, you are better off doing any work by yourself.
Karl

Three motorcycles 1960-1977 (restored a 1955 BSA)
Agility 50
Yager 200i
Downtown 300i
Navy tech, Ships Engineer, pilot and aircraft mechanic

Texxan

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 23
    • View Profile
Re: Diagnosing problems without a dealer
« Reply #36 on: November 28, 2018, 04:46:31 AM »
I hear ya JJJoseph....

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function split()