Should a new Downtown 350i consume/burn oil?

[souzamoto]

OK, you qualified yourself on break-in and operation quite well, I think. I am not surprised you are getting the typical dealer runaround AND you can get NO response from Kymco Taiwan (or Kymco Global as they like). I am currently working on a project to get a Greek dealer to support the warranty for an Athens area customer. It is more than frustrating to try to get these dealers to do ANYTHING besides to give BS and hot air after the sale. Are you in the US? Call Kymco USA in S. Carolina if you are and get your regional sales rep on the problem. This has worked in the past. Members of this forum are more knowledgeable than ANY dealer! You may be able to get your bike replaced since it is an oil problem IF you get the regional guy involved. This problem could be bigger than any other we have faced here before. The reason the dealers don't want to do any warranty is because Kymco is too cheap on labor compensation. They will throw parts all day long but won't pay labor so the two year warranty is about worthless.

So, what do YOU do? Find out where and how much the oil is going. It is either being burned or it is leaking or it is pooling somewhere. Find it. THEN see what it is gonna take to fix it. Get hot on this right away because two years go fast when the dealer is dragging his feet waiting for the warranty to expire. Where are you located? Maybe one of us can ride over and really confuse you in person!

Saying that members on this forum are more knowledgeable than ANY dealer is a bit of an arrogant stretch. I personally know many dealers that will run circles around you and most others here. Your take on the way KUS pays warranty is way off base also. If a dealer is stuck on a problem and contacts KUS Tech Services for assistance and KUS recommends the dealer do this or that, they pay both parts and labor plus diagnostic time. Granted that Kymco warranty/flat rate labor times are slim in many cases but, this is common with all manufacturers here in the US. Any brand. Dealers that follow KUS protocol get paid.
Just say'in
CJS 

[stuo]

I don't think it's the customer's responsibility to find the reason for the oil consumption. I would read the fine print of the warranty and if you believe you have met the terms in it then it's on the dealer to fix the problem. In fact, if you dismantle the scoot to find the problem you may violate the terms of the warranty. In the mean time I'd send the dealer a registered certified letter so you have proof that you had the problem before the warranty expires. It also shows him you are serious and can't be easily dismissed by his BS. Small Claims Court?

[CROSSBOLT]

CJS/Souzamoto and stuo: You betcha I am arrogant! Obnoxious, too! Har, har! I have to admit I am VERY short fused when it comes to dealers, their service writers and techs. It took Stig SIX MONTHS to get warranty on his like. Members of this forum diagnosed the problem correctly and practically trained the dealer how to use the Kymco analyzer tool. There was a dealer in Denver that told a customer he needed a NEW WIRING HARNESS on his new People GTi300 to fix his problem and he would have to pay for it! We got the regional guy involved to straighten that mess out. There are many stories on this forum and more on ADVrider forum where dealers hand a pantload of BS to a customer just to get rid of them because they don't want to fool with warranty work or cannot trouble shoot a problem. Yes, there ARE some good dealers but apparently very few. Now I love to help folks with tech problems. I love to get counselled when I am wrong because I learn something. It drives me nuts when some threads just die because the OP either quits, sells/junks the problem or the fix suggested works and he does not follow up but that's my problem. Dealer techs have yet to prove they have even a basic understanding how these bikes work. Currently working on a situation near Athens, Greece where a dealer told a new owner of a People S 150 ABS that all he has to do is crack the throttle to start his EFI scoot! So the problem is not just in the US. When I see a report that one impresses a rider with actually FIXING a problem I will fight to be first in line to compliment. I am waiting.....

[Vision4]

you can get NO response from Kymco Taiwan (or Kymco Global as they like).

Seriously? have you tried? that is extremely discouraging. They did not answer my emails so i recently sent a letter to their head office. i really need them to answer. that would simplify things.

stuo - Thanks for the suggestions! the idea with the oil smoke from the exhaust sounds nice, i'll try that. and i do actually have an official form from them with the date and description of the problem. I think that's a good enough proof that i came within the warranty period. Also the bike is brand new so there's more than a year and a half left.

If i can't get a response from Kymco, i won't give up, but that would complicate things. might have to take this to court.

for those who asked, i don't live in the US.

[stuo]

Other than watching for smoke I wouldn't try to analyze the problem. Do NOT take the bike apart! It isn't your responsibility to find and fix the problem.

Please keep us informed of your results.

Stu

[CROSSBOLT]

Not only tried but tried several times, Vision4! Even on facebook! Tried calling KymcoUSA in S. Carolina and got an outside answering service that had no idea where anyone was! I have not been ignored this thoroughly since I wrote my congressman! The latest thing is obtaining the phone number of the NE Regional Sales Super for Kymco. The source of the number swore me to secrecy. I could tell you but then......well, you saw the movie!

[scooterfan]

CJS/Souzamoto and stuo: You betcha I am arrogant! Obnoxious, too! Har, har! I have to admit I am VERY short fused when it comes to dealers, their service writers and techs. It took Stig SIX MONTHS to get warranty on his like. Members of this forum diagnosed the problem correctly and practically trained the dealer how to use the Kymco analyzer tool. There was a dealer in Denver that told a customer he needed a NEW WIRING HARNESS on his new People GTi300 to fix his problem and he would have to pay for it! We got the regional guy involved to straighten that mess out. There are many stories on this forum and more on ADVrider forum where dealers hand a pantload of BS to a customer just to get rid of them because they don't want to fool with warranty work or cannot trouble shoot a problem. Yes, there ARE some good dealers but apparently very few. Now I love to help folks with tech problems. I love to get counselled when I am wrong because I learn something. It drives me nuts when some threads just die because the OP either quits, sells/junks the problem or the fix suggested works and he does not follow up but that's my problem. Dealer techs have yet to prove they have even a basic understanding how these bikes work. Currently working on a situation near Athens, Greece where a dealer told a new owner of a People S 150 ABS that all he has to do is crack the throttle to start his EFI scoot! So the problem is not just in the US. When I see a report that one impresses a rider with actually FIXING a problem I will fight to be first in line to compliment. I am waiting.....

Crossbolt, you nailed it ! I am 100% with you on this one !

Fact is, most dealers and mechanics are arrogant, and many mechanics at dealer shops do not get proper training on the latest models of different products on the market. That’s exactly why some mechanics do not have a clue about what’s wrong when an owner have a problem with one of the latest models on the market.
On top of this - the latest generation of mechanics are often completely lost if can’t use a diagnostic tool - that’s part of the reason why the latest generation of mechanics are pretty useless at forums.

[john grinsel]

OK OK---I read the complaint over again----real problem is the engine is not yet run in----800 km after 1st service---which ain't much,, suggest going out and riding it another 3-5,000 km and then measure oil use----then see if  problem.....these things are not idiot proof.  My XTown 300i now has at least 3200 miles (5,000 km) with at least 2 long trips....and now all systems seem to be run in and stable.

[CROSSBOLT]

OK OK---I read the complaint over again----real problem is the engine is not yet run in----800 km after 1st service---which ain't much,, suggest going out and riding it another 3-5,000 km and then measure oil use----then see if  problem.....these things are not idiot proof.  My XTown 300i now has at least 3200 miles (5,000 km) with at least 2 long trips....and now all systems seem to be run in and stable.

I disagree, John. Based firstly on my personal experience with 5 separate models of Kymco scooters and secondly I recall NO MENTION on this forum any mention like his. Now you have owned and ridden more models and more miles than anyone I am aware of so I tend to put a LOT of stock in your comments. However, this truly seems like the exception.

[john grinsel]

Based on over 75 new bikes/scooters and throw in over 1.5 million miles.

I think scooter in complaint needs to be run-in.   Start with full/correct oil level.  measure correctly after long rides or at least every 500km   repeat several times over let's say 3,000 km----oil really goes down....then there is problem.

Hope customer really rides.

[CROSSBOLT]

I will bet his dealer recommends this very thing, John. Probably hoping he does not ride that much and the warranty will run out.....

[Vision4]

I think scooter in complaint needs to be run-in.   Start with full/correct oil level.  measure correctly after long rides or at least every 500km   repeat several times over let's say 3,000 km----oil really goes down....then there is problem.

That seems like a really long period for break in, doesn't it?  According to some research i did, 1000km/600 miles should be more than enough. there's a bunch of people including mechanics who are arguing that even those 1000km are not really neccessery in modern engines, and that only the first  50-100 kilometers are important for making the piston ring and cylinder fit perfectly.  And manufacturers keep that reccomendation because it's good for buisness. (the more carefully you drive durning warranty period - less chance for problems appearing that they have to fix).

some articles and videos iv'e seen (like that one ) even claim that with the level of precision in which engine parts are manufactured today, there's little to no meaning for a break-in period at all. (not for the engine anyways).

but 3000 - 5000 km? that's gonna take like half a year

i definetly will ride as much as i can tho, to try and quantify and document the problem. gonna come usefull in court 

 

[CROSSBOLT]

After two 2013 DT300i scoots took about 7500 miles each to stabilize, I think you have longer to think about! Now, neither consumed any oil in that time, just used less and less fuel until that number stopped going up. Started about 65-68 mpg and topped at 73-75 mpg. Oil never varied. Same for a Like200i and a Yager 200i. Same distance just bigger mpg!

[Vision4]

After two 2013 DT300i scoots took about 7500 miles each to stabilize, I think you have longer to think about! Now, neither consumed any oil in that time, just used less and less fuel until that number stopped going up. Started about 65-68 mpg and topped at 73-75 mpg. Oil never varied. Same for a Like200i and a Yager 200i. Same distance just bigger mpg!

I see your point, it is true that different parts of the scooter have different break-in periods.

But regarding my specific problem, the only part that matters is the engine (assuming there's no oil leak, which i have not yet found). Or even more specificly, assuming i have it right, the problem is  originating from one of 2 parts of the engine: (please someone tell me if i'm wrong).

*Either there's a problem with the fitment between the piston ring and the cylinder, which will allow oil to make its way from the crank shaft to the combustion chamber, and then burn along with the air and fuel mixture, resulting in oil loss + excess fuel usage + HP loss.

*Or there's a problem with the valves seals, which will allow oil to enter the combustion chamber from the cylinder head area. which will also result in the same symptoms.

The main risk from not breaking in the engine properly is the former case. (the valves seals don't really require breaking-in as far as i know).

And according to many sources and people i've talked to, it's a pretty definite consensus that the break-in period for the piston/cylinder is at most 1000km, and as i've mentioned earlier, it seems like the majority of proffesionals these days claim that it's actually much less than that in modern engines.

so 1800km (actually i'm on 2000 by now) should be more then enough.

P.S.
if anything i have written here is wrong i'll be very glad to know and be enlightened.(seriously).

[CROSSBOLT]

I would say you have it right. I think I recall you followed the owner's manual break-in which is a pretty easy and accepted procedure. De dee in Canada has a very strenuous break-in schedule and he has high miles on his DT300i. All this is to say that a rider would have to be pretty drastic to do it wrong! Stuo or someone had a pretty good idea of how to see any smoke. So if it is not leaking it, it's burning it by the two areas you named. Keep tabs on it and post what you get.