KYMCO like 200 keeps dying

[Stig / Major Tom]

Well, "the ECU controls the injector - not the other way 'round." (quote from Kymco guru Vivo)

But cannot get my head around a bad ECU - never known one to fail on a LIKE200i. Especially since you are getting a good spark when grounding the plug. ECU is sparking it!

so, after a whole boatload of other things proven good (injector, fuel pump, spark plug & wire, loose spark plug cap, loose spark plug, ignition switch, etc.) (that battery is really good, yes?!)
From the serv. manual:
Engine starts, but stops:
air intake leak
faulty coil or pulse generator

Testing the coil is a tester - because of where it is parked. The mounting screws are from the outside of the scooter - under the outer plastic. VERY hard to get the coil dismounted without removing the big right side body panel. I've done it but not fun.

Testing coil;
You must get the distal black square-ish connector off of the coil, and touch the coils two prongs with your multimeter.
(not the round front wire into the coil from the spark plug)
ignition Coil Primary Resistance
0.654 ~ 0.672 Ω

Please keep us in the looo.... Oh h_ll, good luck!

Stig
Glad we didn't buy a fuel pump or injector!

[whiskers626]

Ok so here’s where I am. I was messing with the scoot, taking a look at how to get to the coil, but I have a new problem now, I think I have either worn out my starter relay or my starter cause my brand new battery will barely turn the engine over. I took the new battery and had it load tested and the battery is good. So now how do I test the starter relay? Also I took the spark plug out which is new just to check the gap, and the spark plug smelled of gasoline, does that mean something?

I will have a go at the coil tomorrow, but before I tear the other side apart, if the coil was bad would the engine still start using starter fluid as it will start and run when I spray it in the intake!
Thank you

[scooterfan]

................... So now how do I test the starter relay?.........

 Also I took the spark plug out which is new just to check the gap, and the spark plug smelled of gasoline, does that mean something?

The starter solenoid / relay has a wire which goes to the starter Motor. That wire only gets Positive (+) feed when the ignition switch gets switched "On", and when you then hit the starter Button.
You can disconnect that wire (between the starter Motor and the solenoid/ relay) at the solenoid/ relay - and do a voltage test at the loose terminal on the solenoid/ relay when somebody hit the starter button (with ignition switch in "On" position).

If you get a proper voltage reading (about 12+ Volts) on the loose terminal - the starter Motor probably got faulty.
If you get a much lower Voltage reading on the loose terminal, the starter solenoid/relay, starter Button, ignition Switch, or brake Switches could be faulty.

The gasoline smell should be normal - because gasoline will be squirted into the combustion chamber even when the engine was turning slowly.

[Stig / Major Tom]

I will have a go at the coil tomorrow, but before I tear the other side apart, if the coil was bad would the engine still start using starter fluid as it will start and run when I spray it in the intake!
Thank you

OK, to recap:
This is a scooter with only 500 miles.....so doubt anything much has cooked from wear. You are not touching the throttle on any start attempts - correct? (this EFI engine does not like any attempt to help it with throttle!)
Pump, injector, spark plug, starter, coil, relay, starter switch - ALL seemed to be working because it starts/runs with starter fluid.
(1) Is the starter relay still clicking when you push starter button?

Fuel smell on plug - normal. DO let engine rest for some time between starts - repeated attempts will flood the cylinder with fuel - wetting the plug & making for hard starting on even a healthy engine. Wet plug also points to good fuel flow, or at least some fuel flow.

(2) Remove the spark plug - let all the extra fuel in engine dry out for hours.

Firing with starter fluid spray and seeing a good spark on the spark plug - probably means the coil is OK, too. Don't mess with it. Hearing the starter relay click when you push start button usually means relay is OK, too


(3) After you dry out the engine - Replace the spark plug and try jump starting using a car. Connect your battery to a good battery in the car - DO NOT have the car running! Just connect scooter battery to the car battery.
Try starting for a few seconds only each time. Let things rest/cool between a few start attempts.

At this point I don't trust your tired battery - and do not think you've cooked either the starter or its relay - unless you were really hammering them. The car jump win or fail will tell us a lot.

No go?
Then stop.
Report back.
Hang in there!

Stig

[whiskers626]

Ok, so I tested the relay on the post that connects the starter to the relay with a multimeter while I pushed the starter button, the voltage was 12 something.
Also, I took the spark plug out, let the engone dry and put it back in and tried to start it with my car battery, it would barely turn over, then when I disconected my jumper cables and tried again all i heard was the starter clicking like on a car when the battery is dead. I have had the new battery tested and load tested twice and the test said the battery was fine. I dont know what else to do.

[scooterfan]

Ok, so I tested the relay on the post that connects the starter to the relay with a multimeter while I pushed the starter button, the voltage was 12 something.
Also, I took the spark plug out, let the engone dry and put it back in and tried to start it with my car battery, it would barely turn over, then when I disconected my jumper cables and tried again all i heard was the starter clicking like on a car when the battery is dead. I have had the new battery tested and load tested twice and the test said the battery was fine. I dont know what else to do.

I think you have no option other than removing the starter completely, clamp it in a bench vice, and test it directly from the scooter's battery by using jumper cables. Rather disconnect the scooter's battery terminals from the battery before the jumper cables get connected to the battery.

You actually need to do some kind of "load test" on the starter motor to see if i'ts still in good working order. The starter motor might be running when connected to the battery, but it might not be able to turn properly under load.
You can do a simple diy test on the starter motor by pressing a plank, or piece of wood against the bendix drive gear when the motor gets connected to the battery during the bench test. I know this sounds stupid - but tests like this on starter motors are quite common. If the motor start loosing speed without pressing too hard on the plank / wood, chances are about 100% that the starter motor is faulty.

Just be very careful if you do a test like this yourself. You at least need to wear eye protective gear, as well as gloves during the test . Pieces of wood might be flying everywhere and you need to have a firm grip on the plank / wood when you press against the bendix drive. The starter motor also needs to be clamped properly at the bench vice during a test like this.

If you prefer not to do a test like this yourself - rather get the starter motor tested at the agents, or any auto electrician. Any auto electrician should be able to tell whether the starter motor is faulty or not.

[Stig / Major Tom]

I think you have no option other than removing the starter completely, clamp it in a bench vice, and test it directly from the scooter's battery by using jumper cables. Rather disconnect the scooter's battery terminals from the battery before the jumper cables get connected to the battery.

You actually need to do some kind of "load test" on the starter motor to see if i'ts still in good working order. The starter motor might be running when connected to the battery, but it might not be able to turn properly under load.
You can do a simple diy test on the starter motor by pressing a plank, or piece of wood against the bendix drive gear when the motor gets connected to the battery during the bench test. I know this sounds stupid - but tests like this on starter motors are quite common. If the motor start loosing speed without pressing too hard on the plank / wood, chances are about 100% that the starter motor is faulty.

Just be very careful if you do a test like this yourself. You at least need to wear eye protective gear, as well as gloves during the test . Pieces of wood might be flying everywhere and you need to have a firm grip on the plank / wood when you press against the bendix drive. The starter motor also needs to be clamped properly at the bench vice during a test like this.

If you prefer not to do a test like this yourself - rather get the starter motor tested at the agents, or any auto electrician. Any auto electrician should be able to tell whether the starter motor is faulty or not.

Scooterfan, You're the electrician - So, I'll pose this to you.
Could not we just use a screwdriver across the two starter relay posts to see if the starter works?
If starter does work, then haven't we narrowed it down to a relay that 'clicks' but, for internal reasons, is not working - before we go pulling out the starter??

Stig

[scooterfan]

Scooterfan, You're the electrician - So, I'll pose this to you.
Could not we just use a screwdriver across the two starter relay posts to see if the starter works?
If starter does work, then haven't we narrowed it down to a relay that 'clicks' but, for internal reasons, is not working - before we go pulling out the starter??

Stig

Hi Stig, just to get the records straight - I'm not a qualified electrician.  I've been a workshop manager before I retired. We manufactured industrial equipment and we used several brands of engines on our products. From time to time we experienced electrical problems and I always liked watching the electrical guys when they were solving problems. I eventually got involved in solving problems myself without having a proper qualification.

Regarding a screwdriver - yes, a screwdriver or piece of thick wire can be used to bridge the two "big" terminals  on the solenoid / relay, but to my understanding whiskers626 got a 12 Volt reading on the loose terminal during the test. Therefore to my mind the solenoid/ relay seems to be okay - but there is a possibility that you could be right. It definitely can't hurt just to bridge the two solenoid terminals to see what happens.

@ whiskers626
Just another thought which came to mind.
Rather bridge the two terminals on the solenoid / relay first.
If there is no improvement on the starter motor speed:

- Before you remove the starter motor, remove the spark plug - and remove the cooling fan Cover on the engine first.
-Then try to swing the engine clockwise, by turning the cooling fan by hand.

The engine should swing easily. If you find it slightly difficult  to turn the engine by hand you are having a mechanical problem - not an electrical problem.
If the engine turns easily by hand and bridging the solenoid terminals didn't help - I would definitely remove the starter motor for a proper test.

[JJJoseph]

These things are bullet proof scoots -

They may be "bullet-proof" but when they won't run, they're impossible to diagnose.  I have a good friend with a similar F/I model (Yager 200) that just won't keep running, just like this one.  When he phones, I won't answer.  Isn't it time to hear from someone who has converted from F/I to a carburetor?

[Stig / Major Tom]

Viper254 suggested fuel problem. He's built LIKEs.
I swear, the injector remains suspect with me now . ...I'd be thinking about that elephant in the room - the ECU, which controls the injector.

If we've worn out the starter, or relay....in trying to get and ignite the fuel, we've complicated things.

Short that relay, if starter operates.
Tis dealer time??

Stig

[whiskers626]

Well I tested the relay, and it’s operable, now the starter will not even turn the engine. Does anyone have a step by step diagram on how to take the starter out so I can test it. The service manual instruction say “remove and install in reverse of removal duh lol

[scooterfan]

Well I tested the relay, and it’s operable, now the starter will not even turn the engine. Does anyone have a step by step diagram on how to take the starter out so I can test it. The service manual instruction say “remove and install in reverse of removal duh lol

 I have no experience regarding removing starter motors on scooters,  but maybe the procedure will not be very different from the procedure on this video at Youtube:

https://www.google.com/search?q=how+to+remove+a+scooter+starter+motor&oq=how+to&aqs=chrome.3.69i59j69i57j69i59j35i39j0j69i61.21366j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#kpvalbx=_K-OQXdeDD6TjxgPS3KHADg16


This video should also by useful:

 

[Stig / Major Tom]

To answer your question, nope. No step by step.

A 3 min. test before trying to remove the starter:
You have a good brake light with key on and brake lever pulled?
Your turn signals are bright and blink at normal speed with key on?
Stater relay 'clicks' when start button pushed?

Yes?
No? stop - and please report back.

I have never really looked...but hopefully you can see the two 8mm mounting bolts after you remove the seat pan?
I think it is the gold colored can-shaped part nearly under the left side of the fuel tank?
Or, maybe you can get at them from the left side of the scooter, under the bodywork? But I'm not seeing a clear path that way.

If you can get a socket or wrench on the two little bolts ---- it should slide out after being unbolted.
I think the fender hugger is also attached to the rear-most mounting bolt.
New OEM Kymco one runs about $70. Probably a bunch of cheaper Chinese ones avail., if you want to go that way. But, since there's no kick start on these scoots - you might want to invest in a good one.



You, and we, will be pleasantly surprised if a new starter will fix your original issue!
Stig

[JJJoseph]

Since this appears to be a 200i fuel injected model, have you tried any ECU diagnostics tools?  It's possible that your injector nozzle could be OK, but the injection timing might be off.  This would be the next step after verifying that the fuel pump is working, and the injector nozzle itself is clean and spraying properly when activated.  The Injector is activated by a simple electrical signal from the ECU.  It's likely not a complicated setup, but no signal means no fuel and the engine won't start.  You can test by removing the injector and spraying some fuel into the injector opening in the intake manifold.  If everything else is OK, the engine will fire briefly.  Then you need to check out the ECU.  However, I'm not familiar with how the ECU diagnostic tool in the Like 200i is connected since the Like may not have a standard Harley or similar OBD2 diagnostic port.

[Stig / Major Tom]

Since this appears to be a 200i fuel injected model, have you tried any ECU diagnostics tools?  It's possible that your injector nozzle could be OK, but the injection timing might be off.  This would be the next step after verifying that the fuel pump is working, and the injector nozzle itself is clean and spraying properly when activated.  The Injector is activated by a simple electrical signal from the ECU.  It's likely not a complicated setup, but no signal means no fuel and the engine won't start.  You can test by removing the injector and spraying some fuel into the injector opening in the intake manifold.  If everything else is OK, the engine will fire briefly.  Then you need to check out the ECU.  However, I'm not familiar with how the ECU diagnostic tool in the Like 200i is connected since the Like may not have a standard Harley or similar OBD2 diagnostic port.

JJJ, let's not run him in circles. ...reading his posts you'll see that he has tested the injector.
Stig