am I the Grim Reaper of scooter owners? (new pics)

[Iahawk]

this is not my week...just changed the oil on my 1996 Honda Helix and what did I see reflecting back at me in the oil? More shiny little flecks of metal. Silver and bronze colored.

I bought the scooter early this summer. Changed oil first day I owned it..seller had just changed it so oil was clean. I changed it after about 600 miles and I did notice a few flakes in there but chose to ignore it...now today I changed the oil after 477 more miles, used a perfectly clean drain pan...and saw lots of flakes. These flakes are all non magnetic, as my magnet didn't pick any of them up (as opposed to my Kymco, where the flakes were all magnetic).

Scoot has 8121 miles on it and is in otherwise excellent condition.

Thoughts on what the non magnetic flakes in the oil mean?  Have I killed another poor, little scooter?

[rjs987]

Maybe reconsider what oil you are using?

[Iahawk]

different oils in both scoots..

[Stig / Major Tom]

Any operational issues with the engine?
If not - perhaps whatever caused the particles occurred in the miles before you took ownership?
Or maybe a few are nothing which would respond to anything you could reasonably do at this point in the life of your gracefully aging Honda?
Stig

[mousejunks]

The oil looks quite black for a short change interval. Maybe it was alreadyy on its way out?

[Ruffus]

@hawk, if you have the chance, take a part diagram of your HELIXs motor and start analysing where this flakes could come from.
Bronze/brass bearings are not that common.
Found only three items in a HELIX which contain brass (pls see pic)
Two are in your cooling circle and this oil- hose connector?

If you changed to syntetic oil recently, in contrary to your predecessor, it's most likely a residue form yesteryear. Syntetic oil is more dissolving.
Did you check your filter screen?

One more possibility would be your crankshaft "slide" bearings, guess Helix has this car motor plain bearings, which are from kind of alloy.

Without strange noises or other issues I would not be too concerned.

You might know it anyway
 "Helix Discussion Board "
http://www.slonaker.net/helixforum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3679&sid=bbf90278bc979eac4afffc7a8a184563

[Iahawk]

I'm thinking this was definitely a preexisting condition..possibly the previous owner did his oil change, saw the metal flakes and decided to sell? I changed it the day I bought it and the oil was obviously brand new. At my 600 mile change I didn't look too closely at the oil...and yes, Ruffus, I did change to synthetic oil. I have no idea what was used previously.

At yesterday's oil change the oil itself looked fine and you would not notice metal flakes unless you tilted the drain pan off to one side and the oil flowed but left behind the heavier flakes. After my Kymco oil change I was definitely going to closely examine this oil.

Oil screen was relatively clean, only found 1 small piece of metal on it.

No drivability issues with the Honda. I have been looking at schematics and pictures of the crank to see what the culprit might be.

I am a member of the Helix message board (slonaker.net) but haven't posted there about this, yet..it is a very quiet board, not much activity anymore.

I'm still thinking something in the crank or the big connecting rod bearing... and thanks for the replies.

[Iahawk]

pulled off my valve/head cover to look at the cam and bearings in my Helix. Searching for an answer to the metal flakes in my oil.

Perfectly clean under the cover but there was some galling of the cam between the bearing and a lobe that I haven't seen before. Could this be a (likely) source of the metal flakes?  The cam 'damage' appears to be older and not still shedding anything...

edit: looking closer at a new pic (attached)  I see the same cam damage on the right side by the bearing..so similar damage at both ends of cam by bearings.  Did we find the culprit?

What do the more experienced members think?

[Iahawk]

one more pic

[CROSSBOLT]

one more pic

Always loaded with opinions here! Now, those cam lobes look perfect! They are the high pressure points. That gnarly section between a lobe and a bearing looks like the colors of heat treatment and possibly rough casting surface. This ( these ) area(s) may be the source.

These engines are all ball bearing with needle rollers on pistion pins so doubtful any bronze/brass bearing or bushings exist. The biggest threat from flakes and particles are to ball and roller raceways as well as the oil pump. You may have loosened some stashes of flakes with the synthetic oil and with frequent changes will see less and less if that theory is correct.

I would continue with frequent changes and piercing observation. Those cam lobes look too good to cause real concern. Ride it like you stole it and keep watch.

[john grinsel]

Old bike---just ride it until it blows up----I have 175,000 miles of HELIX  experience, no engine trouble with 4 new ones--Walmart 10-40 in US.  They spent a lot of time wide open!!

[Ruffus]

@ CROSSBOLT, you might be on the right track
@hawk, think it's very likely this camshaft. Are you chemically inclined?
- if yes, put some battery acid (few drops are enough) in two very clean flat bowls, glass, whatever

- try to get a piece of this camshaft off (oilfree) or around the camhaft there
- take a morsel (oilfree) from your shavings out of the oil (gloves and googles)
- both pieces should be appr. the same size
- drop them each into acid
- observe how they independently react, dissolve the same, boil up, or are completely resistent.....

Compare, with a magnifier, if it's the same reaction, you got your mizer.
It is a very rough test, but if your are very careful and precise with quantity of acid (gloves and googles) then you might see a result.
Take pics in several stages to watch then.

If I remember well, this (and many other brands) have been nitrated (heat-powder surface tungstened) and we had similar issues in the 90ies with this (very effective) hardening process on several machine parts.

I would assamble again and change the motoroil into a mix of thin sintethic oil and ATF (Automatic Transmission Fluid), fill, let the mot idle for a while, let it out, check, refill a new mix again, check.

Until no more specks of something are to be seen.
Then normal 10W40 Synt and go.

[Iahawk]

thanks for the comments, guys. Karl and John had me laughing!
Ruffus, there are no pieces of the cam to remove nor any specs of anything up there under the cam cover. Some on my Helix forum thought the same as Karl - rough casting marks combined with heat treating to explain the ugly camshaft.

I might just put it back together and do a few quick, cheap oil changes to see what else I can flush out.

Interesting how it's oiled up there. An external oil line feeds the top of the valve/cam/rocker cover and delivers oil through 2 small holes right on top of the rocker arms. Like a little shower of oil!

[Ruffus]

@hawk, don't you worry.
Yes, this kind of lubrication (via external line) looks a little bit oldfashioned, but if you watch older Nortons, Moto Guzzi, Enfields, this was standard some years ago and not a bad one (cooling).
Could be, in case, maintained/ replaced easily with blacksmith means.

[Iahawk]

update: put another 59 miles on the Helix and changed the oil again when it was nice and hot...still have some sparkly metal flakes but a whole lot less than the last change. 

I took an oil sample from the original oil change a few weeks back and sent to Blackstone Labs. Analysis came back just fine with no traces of metal in the oil sample (I sampled from mid stream in the draining process).

So I'm just going to keep on riding the Helix and enjoy the hell out of it!

(Blackstone oil analysis attached)