Trail braking.

[Neil955i]

Bends (curves)?  I tend to subscribe to the late Mike "The Bike" Hailwood's maxim, slow in, fast out.  Worked for him and (mostly) works for me.

Can I trail brake?  Yes.  Do I?  Not that often road riding as I prefer to get my braking out of the way on the approach to the bend so I can concentrate on getting leaned over without the drama of upsetting the geometry by hard braking.  Then any minor adjustments (e.g. unsighted gravel beyond the apex) are dealt with by gentle use of the rear brake.

Track day riding I no longer do, but when I did then yes, trail braking lets you carry a much higher corner speed and that matters on the track.  On the road my days of riding 10/10ths are long behind me.  As I've got older, that safety margin is more and more important to me.

[klaviator]

Can I trail brake?  Yes.  Do I?  Not that often road riding as I prefer to get my braking out of the way on the approach to the bend so I can concentrate on getting leaned over without the drama of upsetting the geometry by hard braking.  Then any minor adjustments (e.g. unsighted gravel beyond the apex) are dealt with by gentle use of the rear brake.

Track day riding I no longer do, but when I did then yes, trail braking lets you carry a much higher corner speed and that matters on the track.  On the road my days of riding 10/10ths are long behind me.  As I've got older, that safety margin is more and more important to me.

I don't understand.  What does trail braking have to do with upsetting the geometry?
Why do you need to be braking hard to be trail braking???

[Neil955i]

I don't understand.  What does trail braking have to do with upsetting the geometry?
Why do you need to be braking hard to be trail braking???

Perhaps you misunderstand me or I didn't explain myself clearly enough Klav.  I know trail braking (done correctly) will not upset the steering geometry or involve hard braking.  I was merely pointing out that on the road, I far prefer to separate braking and cornering as much as possible.  OK that may not be the case 100% of the time, but where I can, that's my preferred MO.

[klaviator]

Perhaps you misunderstand me or I didn't explain myself clearly enough Klav.  I know trail braking (done correctly) will not upset the steering geometry or involve hard braking.  I was merely pointing out that on the road, I far prefer to separate braking and cornering as much as possible.  OK that may not be the case 100% of the time, but where I can, that's my preferred MO.

OK.  I understand the appeal of "slow in and fast out".  I do it myself a lot of the time.  I also trail brake some of the time, not because I need to but because I think it is a valuable skill and practicing it on a regular basis keeps that skill sharp.

[Neil955i]

OK.  I understand the appeal of "slow in and fast out".  I do it myself a lot of the time.  I also trail brake some of the time, not because I need to but because I think it is a valuable skill and practicing it on a regular basis keeps that skill sharp.

Sounds like we're on much the same page there Klav.  It IS a useful skill that is well worth practicing.  Use it or lose it.

[Stig / Major Tom]

I think it was KTM that first introduced cornering ABS.  It had absolutely nothing to do with a bike trying to stand up and running off in a corner. 

I guess I was remembering this video from years ago from Bosch, "MSC"
See 2:20


Stig

[klaviator]

I guess I was remembering this video from years ago from Bosch, "MSC"
See 2:20


Stig

Interesting video.  Bosch has been a leader in motorcycle electronic aids like ABS.  My Like150i has 2 channel Bosch ABS and it works well.

In this video Bosch talks about ABS, MSC, traction control and wheelie control.  I didn't hear anything about cornering ABS. 

Lets talk real world.  ABS has become very common and is available on even low priced bikes.  Traction control is also becoming common on mid to high priced bikes.  Vespa for example has traction control on their 300cc scooters.  Cornering ABS is available on some high end bikes.  I don't know about MSC but probably only on some high end, high priced bikes.

They do mention controlling the tendency of bikes to stand up and run wide when braking in a curve.  There are two thing that cause a bike to stand up under braking, maybe more, but tow I know of.  The first is the tires.  Some tires have a tendency to make a bike stand up if the brakes are on when leaned over.  Its probably the tires profile.  This is something I experienced myself.  My Yamaha FJ1100 had a strong tendency to stand up under braking.  I replaced the FJ with an EX500 which was perfectly neutral under braking and didn't stand up.  At least not when I bought it.  When the OEM tires wore out I replaced them with Dunlop 591's, the same tire I used on the FJ.  Now the EX would stand up under braking.  Eventually I went to different tires and that tendency went away.  Since then whenever I got a new bike I would check to see how they behaved when braking in a curve.  None of my current bikes stand up under braking.

The other reason is what the video showed.  If you jam on the brakes in a curve you will upset the chassis which can cause the bike to stand up and run wide.  I have never experienced this but i have read about it.  Jamming on the brakes in a curve is just plain stupid.  I refer you back to the 100 points of traction video I posted earlier where Nick Ienetsch talkes about being smooth when applying the brakes.

So back to the Bosch systems.  Who here has all of that stuff on their bikes?  ABS, sure.  Traction control?  Maybe.  Cornering ABS or MSC??  Anyone?  I have 5 bikes.  Two have ABS and that's it.  None of these other systems.

So if you don't have all these electronic rider aids on your bike it would probably be a good idea to know how to ride without it.  That's why I brought up trail braking.  Trail braking is a technique that racers use to go faster on the track.  It is also a technique that WILL make you a safer rider on the street if you know how to do it properly.  It is a useful technique even if you have no desire to go faster.

So how do you learn trail braking on the street safely?   That's coming up.

[Neil955i]

So back to the Bosch systems.  Who here has all of that stuff on their bikes?  ABS, sure.  Traction control?  Maybe.  Cornering ABS or MSC??  Anyone?  I have 5 bikes.  Two have ABS and that's it.  None of these other systems.

Well Klav up until last month only ABS.  Then I bought the DTX and guess what, it has ABS & TCS!  So 2 out of 4 now.  I've only ever had the ABS kick in twice where I wasn't actively trying to use it and on one of those occasions I am sure it prevented a sub-20mph spill with all the costly plastic damage that would entail.  Paid for itself, right there.  TCS?  Occasionally kicks in when in the car, but I'll have to get back to you regarding the DTX.  On a 300cc scooter I'm wondering if it's overkill?  (But then I thought that with ABS and I'm now a convert.)

[klaviator]

Well Klav up until last month only ABS.  Then I bought the DTX and guess what, it has ABS & TCS!  So 2 out of 4 now.  I've only ever had the ABS kick in twice where I wasn't actively trying to use it and on one of those occasions I am sure it prevented a sub-20mph spill with all the costly plastic damage that would entail.  Paid for itself, right there.  TCS?  Occasionally kicks in when in the car, but I'll have to get back to you regarding the DTX.  On a 300cc scooter I'm wondering if it's overkill?  (But then I thought that with ABS and I'm now a convert.)

Where I see TCS being most likely to kick in is if you are accelerating from a stop or at low speed and you are on something slippery like a wet road with oil on it.  Even a 150 can spin its rear tire in that situation. 

I have also read where TCS can get you stuck and you have to turn it off to get going. 

[john grinsel]

two things to remember from about 1.5 million street miles


#1 traction----tires are already working hard bike leaned over, too much braking force added and down you go.

#2 most bikes, lean and steer related---brake hard in turn and bike may come upright   and in the bushes you go!

[klaviator]

two things to remember from about 1.5 million street miles


#1 traction----tires are already working hard bike leaned over, too much braking force added and down you go.

#2 most bikes, lean and steer related---brake hard in turn and bike may come upright   and in the bushes you go!

With 1.5 million street miles I'm sure you are proficient at trail braking and aren't stupid enough to do to do #1 or #2 above.

[klaviator]

If you aren't proficient at trail braking or don't even know how to do it, it's not hard to learn and it is not a dangerous technique.  It could prevent you from crashing in the future.

First.  You need to be able to brake smoothly in a straight line and have a good feel for your brakes.  If you can't do these two things you need to practice braking in a straight line.  This is a basic skill that all but very new riders should have. 

Assuming you have reasonably good braking skills then you are ready to try trail braking.  Find a curve you are comfortable with and one that you know is clean.  Ride towards the curve and start braking to slow before entering the curve.  Instead of releasing your brakes before entering the curve keep some brake pressure on as you lean into the curve.  It doesn't have to be much pressure.  Starting off it should just be light pressure.  Then smoothly release brake pressure as you increase lean and be off the brakes by the Apex or roughly half way through the curve.  Try this a few times gradually increasing speed as well as brake pressure.  No reason to do this any faster or harder than you feel comfortable with.  The point here is to get comfortable being leaned over with some brake pressure on.  You will see that this is a non issue.  It is not difficult.  You bike won't do anything funky or fly off the road. 

Why do you want to do this?  Because someday you will find yourself in a curve going faster than you want.  Maybe you just misjudged the curve or maybe you get into the curve then see some grave ahead.  If you are already on the brakes and comfortable with the brakes on in a curve it will be easy to adjust brake pressure to slow or even stop.  If you do this then it is no longer trail braking but it sure beats being in that curve with no brakes on and suddenly you need to brake.  Now you are much more likely to grab your brakes and screw things up, especially if you aren't proficient at using your brakes while leaned over. 

Braking after entering a curve is also a usefull skill to have.  It can be done smoothly and safely but it is more difficult to do than trail braking.  It just makes sense to learn trail braking first.  The thing is that if you are used to trail braking it is much easier to properly adjust your speed and makes it less likely you will need to apply brakes mid curve. 

A lot if riders will trail brake up to the point where they see the corner exit before releasing their brakes.  They may be barely using any brake pressure, maybe just enough to have the brake light on but they are on the brakes.

Trail braking on the track or with a high performance bike is normally done using only the front brake.  That's what I do with my Versys but I find scooters just brake better using both brakes so that's what I do. 

[klaviator]

This is the best video I have seen so far for explaining how and why every rider should be trail braking.  I don't agree with 100% of what he says in the video but it is still a great video.  If you want to be a safer rider and you don't regularly use trail braking then you should watch this video unless you live someplace like Kansas that doesn't have any curves.

[Neil955i]

This is the best video I have seen so far for explaining how and why every rider should be trail braking.  I don't agree with 100% of what he says in the video but it is still a great video.  If you want to be a safer rider and you don't regularly use trail braking then you should watch this video unless you live someplace like Kansas that doesn't have any curves.

Should there have been a video attached to this Klav?

[Stig / Major Tom]

Should there have been a video attached to this Klav?

I lost the plot here, too.
Ya' got your trail braking, and your counter steerin' and your.....

Stig