Author Topic: Could really use some help please  (Read 3632 times)

Ruffus

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Re: Could really use some help please
« Reply #30 on: September 10, 2023, 08:47:59 PM »
Did you take this black pipe direct behind the throttle body off and sprayed there?
Don't worry right now about this CEL.

Don't put anything on this throttle body, just leave it open.

Since it's running for a while:
- no ignition issue
- no valve issue

So we might looking towards fuel system.
Do you hear the fuel pump running when you switch ignition on?
Does it spray properly ? (injector)

Far shot again:
-side stand down or switch faulty?
Happy and safe scootering, Ruffus

JJJoseph

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Re: Could really use some help please
« Reply #31 on: September 11, 2023, 07:36:28 AM »

Faulty mass flow sensor would draw a failure code.

Forgive for sounding like a "stuck record" (I'm showing my age :-), but you don't have failure codes without a factory diagnostic reader.  The only way you can see failure codes & debug fuel-injected bikes is take it to the dealer.  Unlike normal cars and trucks, m/c owners don't have access to the diagnostic codes.

Ruffus

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Re: Could really use some help please
« Reply #32 on: September 11, 2023, 11:01:38 AM »
JJJ yes, I'm 100% with you, saying failure codes you have only applying a DiagTool. But failure codes also result in CEL showing for m/c owners.

So, CEL on, something out of norm on your bike, means seeing the dealer for most of us.

DiagTools are available for all of us for small money. I would be able to diagnose, IF I wouldn't have gotten a FXtul for SUZUKI/HONDA/VESPA.
(pls see pics) works great on mentioned brands, but waiting now for my FxTul KYMCO.
Happy and safe scootering, Ruffus

clrains

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Re: Could really use some help please
« Reply #33 on: September 11, 2023, 03:26:01 PM »
Last week I had the air tube off at the throttle body itself and shot staring fluid directly into throttle body and the bike would not start at all.

With that tube connected and just removing the air filter and shooting starting fluid there, the bike will start. 

The new injector seems to be operating correctly. Good spray from all 4 ports.

Let me ask this?  Could it be the map (manifold absolute pressure) sensor?
It there a way to clean and test this theory without just buying a new one

Yes side stand switch operating properly.  When the side stand is down. Pump shuts off.
Fuel pump will energize when the side stand goes up.

Ruffus

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Re: Could really use some help please
« Reply #34 on: September 11, 2023, 03:58:44 PM »
Testing this MAP sensors is out of our reach without certain equipment, sorry.

This guys where I did my MAP change, even told me, in doubt they take new item/ sensor.

Yes, it can be cleaned with lots of rubbing alcohol and Q- tips (I take the very long ones from my wifes praxis which are used to do pap smear test) but very tender not to bend or brake this tongue-like feeler inside.  I do not have expert knowledge there. Maybe I was just lucky when I cleaned mine.
Gurus there told me a thin coat of muck or grease renders them disfunctional.

Surprises me, intake flange (black plastic pipe) off, NO START, would not know why?
We need a  certain ratio of fuel versus air to have a startable mixture within our cylinder (1 vs 14.7 parts) maybe your mix was too rich and dampened the spark, have no better explaination.

Pls see pic
Q: do you have at the red arrow position a screw in it?
Q: do you have the same sensor holder position as under green arrow?
Because if you had this under green out, it's nearly impossible to readjust without electronic equipment.
...and a screw in there at red could block throttle movement to a certain degree...
« Last Edit: September 11, 2023, 10:22:56 PM by Ruffus »
Happy and safe scootering, Ruffus

clrains

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Re: Could really use some help please
« Reply #35 on: September 12, 2023, 12:03:46 AM »
This was my theory as well as to why there was no start directly into throttle body. Mixture of balance.

As for the picture. The red arrow, no. I have never touched anything at there.

The green arrow, yes. This is the map sensor and I did remove it to see if there were any signs that is was damaged or broken.  Reinstalled in the same position I removed or so I think.

Is there a chance that if I play around with position of this sensor it messes things up?

Ruffus

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Re: Could really use some help please
« Reply #36 on: September 12, 2023, 01:00:52 PM »
I would try to move this positioner in tiny steps, which direction I cannot say. But mark it properly to have a reference point. Cannot get worse.

AFAIK there is a pre-tensioned spring involved, this is to be considered. Take the whole throttle body out first and probe dry.
Happy and safe scootering, Ruffus

clrains

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Re: Could really use some help please
« Reply #37 on: September 17, 2023, 05:51:37 PM »
Good afternoon guys.  This is my update and progress has been made. 
So, I cleaned the throttle body the map sensor and the cold start bypass valve.
I wish now that I had done each step one at a time and tested but since I always seem to be pressed for time I did them all at once.  Good news is now the bike will start right up.  At least today it did
I tested this several times and it started each time.

I will test again tomorrow to see if it starts.

However, now I have a constant check engine light.
I have adjusted and readjusted the map sensor and the cold start bypass to no avail. 
I’m guessing now I will have to find a code reader. Maybe this will help solve this mystery.

When you first cycle the key of course you get all the lights on the dash including the check engine light. Everything is energized. All lights will go out. The bike will start and about 5-10 seconds later the check engine light comes back on.

Is there any key cycle combinations that flash the code like on some cars and trucks?

Thanks for all the help so far.  I’m much more confident that this bike will in fact ride again.

Ruffus

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Re: Could really use some help please
« Reply #38 on: September 17, 2023, 09:20:51 PM »
Yeees, this is what we want!
Like I wrote, don't you worry about this CEL right now. There is NO mechanical failure which could rot your engine. The scoot will NOT go into workshop mode like a car which shows CEL and slows down to 70km/h to force you to see a dealer.

No, no flashcode, only diagtool to read.
Most probably a sensor is bent or lightly miffed. This sensors recover sometimes, or CEL dissappears after certain amounts of cycles.

Lately a forum colleague (txs to Ericson) found an inexpensive diagnostic tool (pls see link)

https://www.kymcoforum.com/index.php?topic=33628.0

which I ordered, used and am happy with.
Maybe a solution for you, if no dealership within reach.
N.B.:  try only with a fully charged battery or jumpstart, maybe read my thread about my 500i in this collumn.....
« Last Edit: September 17, 2023, 09:31:49 PM by Ruffus »
Happy and safe scootering, Ruffus

clrains

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Re: Could really use some help please
« Reply #39 on: September 18, 2023, 09:07:00 AM »
I will put all the plastic back on and take her for a ride.
I will go ahead and purchase the diagnostic tool you linked to and will also read your post.
I will update agin in a few days. I have a feeling that my work schedule will be crazy this week as I prepare for vacation next week. 
Thanks again for all the help.

CROSSBOLT

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Re: Could really use some help please
« Reply #40 on: September 18, 2023, 12:07:01 PM »
I will put all the plastic back on and take her for a ride.
I will go ahead and purchase the diagnostic tool you linked to and will also read your post.
I will update agin in a few days. I have a feeling that my work schedule will be crazy this week as I prepare for vacation next week. 
Thanks again for all the help.
One way to get rid of CEL or codes is to disconnect the battery for 30 seconds or a few minutes.....no special tool needed.
Karl

Three motorcycles 1960-1977 (restored a 1955 BSA)
Agility 50
Yager 200i
Downtown 300i
Navy tech, Ships Engineer, pilot and aircraft mechanic

clrains

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Re: Could really use some help please
« Reply #41 on: September 18, 2023, 09:18:38 PM »
I disconnect the battery each time I’m done working on it. It has sat for several days with no battery connection. I’m going to check again tonight. It will have been 24 hours off the battery

clrains

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Re: Could really use some help please
« Reply #42 on: September 18, 2023, 09:54:45 PM »
Got to my shop this afternoon and new symptom. Maybe related. 
Hooked up battery. Battery tested at 12.77. Tried to start bike.  It would just crank but not fire. 
Hooked up my jump box. She started instantly.
Once running. I tested battery again and it is charging at 13.50. Rolling on the throttle has seemingly no effect on charging.  It’s steady at 13.50- 13.51.  Regardless of throttle position.

Weak starter maybe?

  The battery is new but honestly it is a mid/ low level brand.
Weize is the battery brand.

CROSSBOLT

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Re: Could really use some help please
« Reply #43 on: September 19, 2023, 07:12:15 AM »
Got to my shop this afternoon and new symptom. Maybe related. 
Hooked up battery. Battery tested at 12.77. Tried to start bike.  It would just crank but not fire. 
Hooked up my jump box. She started instantly.
Once running. I tested battery again and it is charging at 13.50. Rolling on the throttle has seemingly no effect on charging.  It’s steady at 13.50- 13.51.  Regardless of throttle position.

Weak starter maybe?

  The battery is new but honestly it is a mid/ low level brand.
Weize is the battery brand.
Load test battery...may have a "weak" cell.
Karl

Three motorcycles 1960-1977 (restored a 1955 BSA)
Agility 50
Yager 200i
Downtown 300i
Navy tech, Ships Engineer, pilot and aircraft mechanic

Ruffus

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Re: Could really use some help please
« Reply #44 on: September 19, 2023, 11:31:00 AM »
This is why I wrote...

N.B.:  try only with a fully charged battery or jumpstart, maybe read my thread about my 500i in this collumn

..... anyway, we do have a running motor which is only showing CEL, but behaving normal and charges properly...
...13.50V is showing that: battery full, no lights or other users connected..
Your startermotor  is fine. They are pretty sturdy in this model.

Next time you attempt to start try following:
-connect battery
-ignition on (fuelpump running)
-NO start yet!
-position lights on for about 20 seconds
-lights off
-brake lever and START!
How does it behave?

If it starts in that mode, a cell is "shorted", means you need a new battery or your jumpstart set all the time with you (which is a way too).
I would reccomend a LiFePo4 20 amps, which annules all this zores.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2023, 11:47:09 AM by Ruffus »
Happy and safe scootering, Ruffus

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