Author Topic: The end of gas-powered motorcycles?  (Read 2859 times)

JJJoseph

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The end of gas-powered motorcycles?
« on: December 07, 2023, 08:54:16 AM »
There's a lot of noise from some regions about the end of gas-powered cars and trucks by 2030. What are the plans in your part of the world? Does this include scooters, motorcycles, boats and airplanes, too? 

Neil955i

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Re: The end of gas-powered motorcycles?
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2023, 11:58:18 AM »
The UK has delayed its ban on the sale of new cars which burn petrol or diesel in internal combustion engines (ICE) from 2030 to 2035. In some ways, this is no surprise: the original plan was to ban them from 2040, a deadline brought forward by the then prime minister, Boris Johnson, in 2020.

About to get a new (to us) car and guess what, it will likely be diesel powered again.  The price is still way too high for the equivalent EV or Hybrid.
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randyo

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Re: The end of gas-powered motorcycles?
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2023, 01:03:28 PM »
I'm not ready for the range and charging time yet. I'm retired now, but coming from being a self employed consultant, some days zero miles, other days 300-400 miles of chasing research, checking crew work and meeting with clients. Now more days of zero, but driving to places with no charging infrastructure
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Iahawk

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Re: The end of gas-powered motorcycles?
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2023, 01:27:45 PM »
I think it's an ambitious/optimistic timeline to eliminate gasoline engines by year 20xx...but you have to start somewhere. My company has a fleet of 1000's of company provided cars. The plan is to go all electric by 2030. We already have some out in the field. The challenge, like randyo said, is range and charging time. Electric cars work great in large metro areas where the miles driven each day aren't great and a good charging network exists.

For those driving large distances across rural areas with little to no charging infrastructure...they don't work, for now.

Batteries will improve. Range will improve. Charging time will be shortened. The question is when will it hit the sweet spot?
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randyo

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Re: The end of gas-powered motorcycles?
« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2023, 06:30:37 PM »
before the charging infrastructure is improved, the power companies have to expand their 3 phase grid
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nostinkinroads

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Re: The end of gas-powered motorcycles?
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2023, 07:20:41 PM »
There's a lot of noise from some regions about the end of gas-powered cars and trucks by 2030. What are the plans in your part of the world? Does this include scooters, motorcycles, boats and airplanes, too?
2 weeks after gas powered vehicles are outlawed 95% of the Earth's population will have starved to death and you will be free to drive whatever you like if you survive.

Wood fueled Gasifiers ftw just in case.

leomagnus

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Re: The end of gas-powered motorcycles?
« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2023, 09:02:15 PM »
California promotes a lot of this green agenda crap, yet this past summer, they couldn't even supply enough electricity for households, thus they told people to charge their electric cars every other day. These are the problems with all EV vehicles:

1) There is very little infrastructure to support a total conversion to charging cars. The batteries take a long time to charge.
2) There are not enough rare earth metals to make batteries to replace every single car, truck, motorcycle, train, boat, etc...
3) The current electrical grid cannot supply enough energy to charge all of these vehicles, thus carbon based fuels are needed to account for the energy deficit. Wind and Solar are limited because the Sun does not always shine, nor does the wind always blow(Unless you are a politician in Washington DC(possible source of unlimited wind energy))...lol
4) You still need to make plastics(which require petroleum products) for exterior and interior parts. You need forges to form the metal frames, which use tremendous amounts of energy, etc...
5) The Battery metals are hazardous to mine(think poor children, men, and women being exposed to Lithium poisoning). They are also hazardous to get rid of once they are depleted. So all the green hippies think they are saving the earth buy saving gas use, yet the rare metal pollution from spent batteries have a far more deleterious effect.
6) This green agenda is politically motivated, thus they are forcing an energy solution which is not feasible at this time. People's energy costs are going up and causing a domino effect on cost of goods and thus reduced spending in the economy.

This being said, hybrid engines are a great way to incorporate using less gas and some EV to reduce emissions. The batteries are smaller, but energy is recaptured through driving and breaking.
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JJJoseph

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Re: The end of gas-powered motorcycles?
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2023, 10:47:54 PM »
I'm aware of all the noise about the end of gas-powered CARS, but it's not clear if this means the end of gas-powered MOTORCYCLES.  Does anybody have any foresight on the end of gas-powered 2-wheelers?

Iahawk

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Re: The end of gas-powered motorcycles?
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2023, 11:54:45 PM »
I'm sure at some point all internal combustion engines will be banned...but most of us will likely be dead by then so it really won't matter...much..
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mousejunks

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Re: The end of gas-powered motorcycles?
« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2023, 02:51:00 AM »
 
California promotes a lot of this green agenda crap, yet this past summer, they couldn't even supply enough electricity for households, thus they told people to charge their electric cars every other day. These are the problems with all EV vehicles:

1) There is very little infrastructure to support a total conversion to charging cars. The batteries take a long time to charge.
2) There are not enough rare earth metals to make batteries to replace every single car, truck, motorcycle, train, boat, etc...
3) The current electrical grid cannot supply enough energy to charge all of these vehicles, thus carbon based fuels are needed to account for the energy deficit. Wind and Solar are limited because the Sun does not always shine, nor does the wind always blow(Unless you are a politician in Washington DC(possible source of unlimited wind energy))...lol
4) You still need to make plastics(which require petroleum products) for exterior and interior parts. You need forges to form the metal frames, which use tremendous amounts of energy, etc...
5) The Battery metals are hazardous to mine(think poor children, men, and women being exposed to Lithium poisoning). They are also hazardous to get rid of once they are depleted. So all the green hippies think they are saving the earth buy saving gas use, yet the rare metal pollution from spent batteries have a far more deleterious effect.
6) This green agenda is politically motivated, thus they are forcing an energy solution which is not feasible at this time. People's energy costs are going up and causing a domino effect on cost of goods and thus reduced spending in the economy.

This being said, hybrid engines are a great way to incorporate using less gas and some EV to reduce emissions. The batteries are smaller, but energy is recaptured through driving and breaking.

I'm not in the BEV crowd yet due to sheer cost. Very difficult at the moment to buy affordable electric bikes with comparable range, weight and speed to ICE bikes. The Harley Davidson Livewire for example is 50,000 AUD and comparable to a $12K 650cc cruiser/naked. The BMW CE 04 scooter is 22,000 AUD and comparable to a $9K 350cc maxi scooter, but with only 120km range.

However, there are workarounds to the points above:

1) People have an obsession at the moment with range which means bigger batteries which takes longer to charge. We need a cultural change so people are incentivised to charge smaller amounts at time, like we are happy to charge our phones several times a day without thinking. No need to have 100% charge all the time if there is better charging infrastructure, just like not having a full tank all the time because there are filling stations everywhere.

Some EVs have a VTL (vehicle to load) function which can supply power your home during peak periods.

2) This is true to an extent, there isn't enough lithium or rare earth metals in the world so we need to develop alternative battery chemistries such as sodium-ion.

3) Fossil fuels and nuclear are very important to provide baseload power generation.

However in countries like Australia, 1 in 4 homes have their own solar power and this is becoming more common, allowing people to charge at home. Not uncommon for homes to have a system up to 10kW which can provide 100-200km range per day (assuming 15kWh per 100km) in addition to household demands. Plenty enough.

Variations in supply/demand can also be compensated with battery farms and other energy storage which is important for renewables.

4) This will happen regardless of whatever cars people choose to drive. If anything this means less consumption of petroleum and depletion of deposits.

5) They are moving away from cobalt, of which 3/4 of the world's supply came from Congo, aka child labor.  Mining will always have issues.

6) Of course it is. The US and Europe want to reduce their dependence on OPEC countries which can be volatile and run by authoritarian regimes. The key word is sustainability - making existing resources last longer.

Hybrids - this is a good solution. The new Prius uses just 4.7/100km which is very good and more makers are offering hybrid versions of their ICE vehicles. Hybrids are not as expensive as they used to be and are a viable alternative to pure BEVs. Plenty of Priuses with 1 million kilometres.

I think HEVs (hybrids) and PHEVs (plug-in hybrids) offer the best of both worlds and are the immediate solution. They also excel in the city where most people live and use the fraction of lithium of BEVs.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2023, 02:53:03 AM by mousejunks »
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JJJoseph

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Re: The end of gas-powered motorcycles?
« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2023, 08:25:31 AM »
I'm sure at some point all internal combustion engines will be banned...but most of us will likely be dead by then
We won't be dead!  It's only a few years from now!  Try to focus: the question is "will gas-powered scooters be banned after 2030 along with cars?  Or will gas-powered scooters be exempt?"

klaviator

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Re: The end of gas-powered motorcycles?
« Reply #11 on: December 08, 2023, 11:17:46 AM »
We won't be dead!  It's only a few years from now!  Try to focus: the question is "will gas-powered scooters be banned after 2030 along with cars?  Or will gas-powered scooters be exempt?"

Cars will only be banned in a few locations by 2030 and even that is likely to be pushed back.  Much of the world will still be buying ICE powered vehicles well past 2030.  These bans mostly apply to the selling of new vehicles.  This means ICE vehicles will be on the road until well past 2050.  Where I live they are building gas stations like crazy. 

Recent news articles show that the demand for electric vehicles is below what is expected and many manufacturers are scaling back plans for EVS in the immediate future at least for the USA. 



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Re: The end of gas-powered motorcycles?
« Reply #12 on: December 08, 2023, 12:38:05 PM »
Whooo~!
Think what used cars will be going for!!
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I bet the guys selling horses were just as upset when the automobile came along.

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CROSSBOLT

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Re: The end of gas-powered motorcycles?
« Reply #13 on: December 08, 2023, 03:10:44 PM »
Whooo~!
Think what used cars will be going for!!
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I bet the guys selling horses were just as upset when the automobile came along.

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rjs987

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Re: The end of gas-powered motorcycles?
« Reply #14 on: December 08, 2023, 04:53:15 PM »
And the horses are still here!

And they cost more to own now than they did back then!

I agree that too many people are obsessed with "range" of their vehicles. But they also don't really understand what range they are considering. There are more ways to think of range.
Is it how many miles a vehicle can go on a single tank or full charge? EVs are getting closer but not yet there.
Is it how many miles a vehicle can go in a day? or two days? or 3? or more? EVs are definitely not there yet per gas powered vehicles simply due to time to recharge and how far until there is a need to recharge.

But there's even more to consider. How far does anyone REALLY need to go on a daily basis most often? EVs are definitely already fulfilling this need. There are always exceptions but most people don't go half as far daily on average as the potential range of most EVs can go on a single charge. Personally I think it stupid to base my decision only on what my distance needs are once or twice per year. I used to be stupid but getting smarter as I get older. Most people take an airplane to go farther than any EV can take them. So take the EV to the airport and rent an EV at the destination. Again, there are always exceptions and there are some people, for work or for personal needs, who have to go farther in a day on a regular basis than any EV can take them. That's where the infrastructucture really needs to improve.

I've always felt that if it were economical to buy an EV in the first place then don't consider it a long distance vehicle but a daily driver/rider type vehicle and also keep a gas vehicle around for longer distance... or rent one. We rented a larger vehicle than what we own just to be able to take the entire family on a longer trip in one vehicle and also save wear and tear (translate: maintenance) on the vehicles we own. That worked out really well.

There is movement in political circles that will delay or prevent the demise of ICE vehicles any time soon... as in possibly the next 20-30 years at least. I don't see ICE vehicles of any kind going away in my lifetime... except maybe in California.
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