Author Topic: Rider down! How do other clubs...  (Read 3455 times)

jprestonian

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Rider down! How do other clubs...
« on: February 21, 2011, 11:00:36 PM »
We had a glorious ride on a perfect day, yesterday... until one of our six riders hit some gravel in a curve, and went into a ditch. Fortunately, he had all the gear on, and other than his pride (and his Buddy 125's previously-pristine condition), he was unhurt.

What happened is the guy was trying to ride beyond his comfort zone -- trying to keep up with the front of the pack on a winding, country road. The other five of us had ridden together in the past, and so we kinda know to watch for stragglers, and to wait for them to catch up before making any turns off the current road, etc. The trouble is, we didn't let him know that. So, maybe he was afraid of being left lost in the woods.

Do y'all know of any clubs out there that explain how group rides work, emphasizing safety and having fun over feeling any need to compete or be left behind?
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Hoolander2

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Re: Rider down! How do other clubs...
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2011, 02:58:53 AM »
Yes, if you all had let him know you'd always wait up, he would have felt more comfortable, probably. 

Being at or near the back of a group, one is always subject to the ol' accordion effect.  That is, even though front riders keep a nearly constant speed, small variations magnify themselves the further back in the group you are.  So, you find yourself doing a lot of throttle and brake work back there. 

I wouldn't want to be lost on unfamiliar roads either!  And you can't blame him, being in the back trying to keep up, you don't always have time to look at street signs and landmarks etc.   

Hoolander2

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Re: Rider down! How do other clubs...
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2011, 03:04:18 AM »
By the way, I've heard it said, anytime there's two or more riders, it always turns into a race.  I think any group should council all riders, especially new members, that this will not do.  Not even a little. 

jprestonian

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Re: Rider down! How do other clubs...
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2011, 03:23:57 AM »
Yes, if you all had let him know you'd always wait up, he would have felt more comfortable, probably.

Yes; we all feel responsible, since we didn't share all of what we took for granted.  :(

With that in mind, I'm trying to come up with a document for group riding. So, do you know of any universally-accepted hand signals that we might use for the usual needs to communicate common riding situations?

We have a few that we use currently, but really wondering if there are ones for "Hey -- I think I might have a troubled rider behind me" or "I am fine, but I need to break off from the ride and get home to the wife."  :)
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jprestonian

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Re: Rider down! How do other clubs...
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2011, 03:31:42 AM »
And actually, this guy was #3 in a pack of 6 when he went down -- I was #6 on purpose, making sure everyone ahead of me was doing okay. I had already U-turned for this guy when he vapor-locked about 45 minutes into the ride. Fortunately, I knew the Buddy and its propensity to do this, and got him right back on the road... but by the time we got that resolved, we already had a couple of other guys coming back to check on us.
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jprestonian

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Re: Rider down! How do other clubs...
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2011, 04:52:03 AM »
... then, when he went down, my fix for his vapor lock (unlatching his gas cap) meant he spilled about a gallon of fuel when he went down.

Can't win 'em all!
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spr0k3t

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Re: Rider down! How do other clubs...
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2011, 05:37:20 AM »
There are hand signals used for group rides that are more or less universal.  Here's a few I found.  When I worked at HarleyDavidson, this is similar to the sheets handed out at every demo rally.

http://www.msf-usa.org/downloads/group_ride.pdf

as well as

jprestonian

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Re: Rider down! How do other clubs...
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2011, 05:42:31 AM »
Thanks!  That's a big help!

I want to use universal signals as much as I can, so if someone leaves the area or comes along from elsewhere, it's not a clusterf**k.  :) That was very helpful. Thanks, again!
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spr0k3t

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Re: Rider down! How do other clubs...
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2011, 06:24:27 AM »
Yeah, there's some really good material over at the MSF site.  Everything from data sheets to instructional videos (albeit cheesy at times).  Great information for new riders though.

ts1

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Re: Rider down! How do other clubs...
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2011, 09:54:02 AM »
Do y'all know of any clubs out there that explain how group rides work, emphasizing safety and having fun over feeling any need to compete or be left behind?
Yepp. Read this notice of a group ride
http://www.rfma.de/threads/4507-Sonntags-Bibbertour
and click on "Teilnahmebedingungen" (terms of participation).

That's common practice during registration for a ride, because in Germany a guide is liable for the unexperienced, young and weak.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2011, 10:02:40 AM by ts1 »

axy

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Re: Rider down! How do other clubs...
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2011, 02:05:08 PM »
I despise and HATE all motorcycle-club stuff.  Generally, I do not like doing things in a group, motorcycle or else.
Furthermore, scooting in a pack is USA-thing: generally no such thing in Europe, or at least it is not common. There are only motorcycle groups/clubs riding together.

I used to have a "pack" of us riding together in my motorcycle days, but would not repeat that anymore (at least not with sports bikes or nakeds, maybe if I had slow custom hogs and things like that, but I would never buy them so it is just a theory).

However, common sense requires that the slowest rider is in the very front, then the second slower... all the way to the fastest rider that should be in the back.

Not vice versa.
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glopezz05

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Re: Rider down! How do other clubs...
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2011, 02:26:27 PM »
I disagree Axy, common sense, to me, means that all riders ride at a pace comfortable to them and regroup when necessary OR all riders agree on a speed and keep to it.

I've never done a group ride on a scoot or a motorcycle but on bicycles we use a lot of hand signals and usually will detail the ride before we take off.

Basic rout info, any pit stops on the way, designate a guide to lead, sweep to ride the back and let it be know if the ride is going to be fast and competative or if its a "No Drop" ride and that there will be regrouping along the way.

spr0k3t, love those hand signals!
Im usually on a bicycle, so for me, this thing is hauling ass!

ScooterWolf

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Re: Rider down! How do other clubs...
« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2011, 02:45:58 PM »
In group rides usually someone is designated as the tail-gunner to keep an eye out for anyone who staggers behind or has problems. Generally before a ride the group should have gone over a detailed map of the route, and alternate roads in case of a detour or traffic problems.

Here are more tips from the MSF:

Motorcycling is primarily a solo activity, but for many, riding as a group -- whether with friends on a Sunday morning ride or with an organized motorcycle rally -- is the epitome of the motorcycling experience. Here are some tips to help ensure a fun and safe group ride:

Arrive prepared. Arrive on time with a full gas tank.

Hold a riders’ meeting. Discuss things like the route, rest and fuel stops, and hand signals (see diagrams on next page). Assign a lead and sweep (tail) rider. Both should be experienced riders who are well-versed in group riding procedures. The leader should assess everyone’s riding skills and the group’s riding style.

Keep the group to a manageable size, ideally five to seven riders. If necessary, break the group into smaller sub-groups, each with a lead and sweep rider.

Ride prepared. At least one rider in each group should pack a cell phone, first-aid kit, and full tool kit, so the group is prepared for any problem that they might encounter.

Ride in formation. The staggered riding formation (see diagram below) allows a proper space cushion between motorcycles so that each rider has enough time and space to maneuver and to react to hazards. The leader rides in the left third of the lane, while the next rider stays at least one second behind in the right third of the lane; the rest of the group follows the same pattern. A single-file formation is preferred on a curvy road, under conditions of poor visibility or poor road surfaces, entering/leaving highways, or other situations where an increased space cushion or maneuvering room is needed.

Avoid side-by-side formations, as they reduce the space cushion. If you suddenly needed to swerve to avoid a hazard, you would not have room to do so. You don’t want handlebars to get entangled.

Periodically check the riders following in your rear view mirror. If you see a rider falling behind, slow down so they may catch up. If all the riders in the group use this technique, the group should be able to maintain a fairly steady speed without pressure to ride too fast to catch up.

If you’re separated from the group, don’t panic. Your group should have a pre-planned procedure in place to regroup. Don’t break the law or ride beyond your skills to catch up.
For mechanical or medical problems, use a cell phone to call for assistance as the situation warrants.


ScooterWolf

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Re: Rider down! How do other clubs...
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2011, 02:53:06 PM »
Here are more group riding guides for a club I'm a member of:

EZ Riders Scooter Club Riding Safety Guidelines It’s important that every EZ Riders Scooter Club rider read and understand this completely!
A group ride is normally composed of a Ride Leader (Leader) and (sometimes) a Sweeper, bringing up the rear.

Staggered (normal) formation

Normal group is done in a staggered formation. Basically, this is dividing a lane in half with each rider occupying his/her own half of the lane. It is your responsibility to ride in the half of the lane as determined by the rider in front of you. For example, if the rider in front of you is riding in the center of the right half of the lane, you would ride in the left half, the rider behind in the right, etc. If the rider in front needs to change lane halves to maintain the stagger, then you must change lane position, and so on down the line.
The Leader usually starts the stagger in the left half position. While in staggered group riding, the normal stagger distance is 1–2 seconds, and no more than a 3‐second gap, in order to maintain a tight formation and not allow traffic to interrupt and break it up. This means that you should be 2–3 seconds behind the rider who is directly in front of you and using the same half of the lane.

When coming to a stop, the group generally forms up two abreast (side by side). When the group starts off again, the rider on the left starts first.

Second rider note: One problem that occurs with staggered formation is that the second rider (to the Leader’s right), having no one in front, tends to creep up until he or she has overlapped with the Leader. This means that the Leader, when needing to dodge to the right, may hit the second rider, resulting in a disaster instead of a minor annoyance. Keep your spacing!

Single‐file formation (no stagger)

Riding in single file, without a stagger, allows the riders more freedom to negotiate curves and dodge obstacles while having the freedom to use the whole lane. It also allows for a more leisurely pace, with time to look at the scenery. Therefore, we will ride in a single file in these situations:

• • •

When riding on curvy, narrow, unpaved, and narrow back roads. When turning at intersections. When there is an obstruction on the side of the road, such as a person or people or (in farm country) cattle or horses.

Changes in formation (stagger to single file, and vice versa) is dictated by the Leader. Holding two fingers in a sort of Victory sign indicates a staggered formation, while the index finger pointing straight up in the air is the signal for single file riding. The only exception is that the Leader will not normally signal for single file riding when turning at intersections—this should always be done.

In single formation the normal distance between riders is increased to 3–5 seconds (and 10 seconds on unpaved roads). For safety, distance in a single file formation should not be so long that you can’t see the rider in front of you. There are two reasons for this:

1.   It is much easier to negotiate around corners by using the next rider’s position to “see” further around blind curves. 2.   The rider can see and pass back hand signals indicating obstacles or other information ahead.

Note that in the presence of horses and riders on the road, or to the side of the road, speed will be dropped to almost a walking pace as well as going single file. Sudden slowing for safety will be indicated by the left hand making pushing down motions, as if asking a car passing your kids to slow down. Horses can be easily spooked with resulting danger to both rider and bike. Slow bikes don’t usually spook horses.

If you feel that the group pace is too fast, then motion the bikes behind to pass until the only one left following is the Sweeper. Then ride at your own pace until the next stop, when you should inform the Leader that you are uncomfortable with the pace. The Leader will decide to either separate the ride into two groups, or go at a slower pace so that all members of the group feel secure.

Group riding is NOT a race!

Maintaining the formation

If a rider in the formation needs to pull out for any reason, the group should close up the gap and reorganize the stagger. Please do not pull off, also, unless you need to do so. The Sweeper will aid the rider who has pulled over. The next (last) rider then becomes the Sweeper of the lead group until the Sweeper returns to the group.
When turning onto another road, if the next rider back cannot be seen, either due to having traffic in‐between, or a large enough gap in the group for any reason, the last rider in the line must wait at the turn for the next rider to show up before leaving the turn so as to signal that the route has taken a turn. This will keep the group together on the same route even though there may be unforeseen gaps in the formation.

If not all bikes are able to get through a traffic light, the riders stuck at the light should signal the riders in front by beeping their horns (two beeps), with the horn signal passed forward to the group leader. The forward riders pull over as far over to the right side of the road as possible and wait for the rest of the group. When the Sweeper is through the light, he or she signals with several short horn beeps, and that signal is forwarded ahead.

If the leader signals that the group should all pull over to the side of the road—with the left arm over the head pointing to the right—all riders should position themselves as far to the right of the shoulder as possible, while the leader’s position will not be as extreme, so the leader can have a good rear view of the riders and can more easily determine when it would be safe for the group to resume riding on the road.

Sweeper – Broken Bike

The broken bike procedure is for the entire group to pull over and try to fix the bike within 10 minutes; if the problem cannot be fixed in that time, the rest of the group carries on with the ride, asking for a volunteer to stay and support the rider with the broken bike—call for a tow, give the rider to wherever they need to go, etc. If the Sweeper volunteers, another rider will be appointed Sweeper.

Passage of Information through Signals:

During the ride, the Leader will make various hand and leg signals. These signals indicate lane changes or turns, obstacles, increasing/decreasing speed, or whether to form a stagger formation or a single line. These hand signals must be passed back through the group, from the front rider to the next rider in line. That way each rider only needs to be aware of signals from the rider directly in front of him/her rather than everyone trying to keep an eye on the Ride Leader.

•   Emergency stop (most important signal): Left hand folded into a fist on top of the helmet.

•   Non‐emergency stop: Left arm held straight out to the elbow while the rest of the arm points straight up.

•   Obstacles: An outstretched left or right leg, indicating which side of the lane the obstacle is located. If you spot an obstacle in the road, immediately signal to the riders     
        behind you so they have the best opportunity to dodge them. Some typical obstacles that should be signaled as to where they may lie in the lane are:           
        sand/dirt/gravel/rocks, potholes, dead animals, road dragons (pieces of truck tire treads), vehicular debris, tar snakes (road tar repairs), etc. Remember that the riders
        towards   the rear in a group ride will not be able to see as much of the whole road surface as those in front due to the visual blockage of the front riders.

•   Rider forgets to turn blinker off: If the rider is in FRONT of you, beep your horn twice (very short beeps), then hold your left arm straight out to the left, with your four
        fingers parallel to the road and your thumb hanging down. Then open and close your fingers in time to the flashing signal.
        To tell a rider BEHIND you that their blinker light is on unnecessarily, give the handle signal above, but do not beep your horn.

•   Group behind must pull over to the side of the road: Left arm over the helmet, pointing to the right, repeated as often as necessary. All bikes except the Sweeper should
        line up as far to the right as possible so that the Leader can more easily see the Sweeper bike when it arrives.
        When stopped, the ride leader may or may not dismount to be able to see behind more easily. Other riders should either stay mounted or if they feel the need to dismount   
        do so only when safe to do so and immediately move to the right side of the bike if possible. Remember, dismounting and getting hit by a car will spoil the whole ride.

•   Police car in area, warning approaching cyclists to slow down: Either the left fist put on top of the helmet and moved up and down or the open hand patting the top of the
        helmet. If you see either of these on your day‐to‐day riding, it either means a police car is coming or you’re about to go thru a speed trap.

Conclusion

Group riding can be a lot of fun if all the members are comfortable within the group. If one or more members of the group are not comfortable, then this should be discussed at the next stop so as to accommodate or correct the cause of the problem. It's very easy to take each problem and, with a little tact, to teach whomever might not have a sufficient understanding of our group riding rules.

axy

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Re: Rider down! How do other clubs...
« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2011, 03:14:38 PM »
I disagree Axy, common sense, to me, means that all riders ride at a pace comfortable to them and regroup when necessary OR all riders agree on a speed and keep to it.

This works very nice in ideal world (where people live in democracies, states provide social safety net to everybody and other lies).

In reality, when you put 15 or 25 guys age 25-45 on 150-200 hp motorcycles, the rules change.

For this reason, and many others I do not associate with "riders", "bikers" etc.
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