Cobra no start & funny sound on elec. start attempt

[Japennell]

Sorry for posting in this location.  I did not see a section designated for Cobra.

I have an 01 50cc Cobra that I bought used and not running.

I replaced the autochoke as the needle was missing.

I replaced the spark plug and I am getting a healthy blue spark.

I replaced the starting coil as I was told by the Prior Owner this was needed.

I installed a working battery.  (Horn works, but the gauges - such as fuel - do not appear to move.)

I cleaned out the carb once.  (I will be doing it again after work today as well.)

I also installed a new fuel filter.  And I can see fuel going to the carb each time I use the kick start.

Prob:  1)  When I try to use the elec start, it just makes a clicking sound.  Nothing else.
2) If I try to use the kick start, I get nothing.

Background:  When I transported the bike, it was laying at a 30 degree angle as I could not safely transport it standing straight up.  Prior owner also said he replaced the rings. (Has alot of miles....)

Other than cleaning the carb again, I am unsure what to check for.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[Japennell]

I found a youtube site () where someone was testing his Super8 and the sound he is getting is what I am experiencing.  

I am assuming the testing meter should read 12 volts when I use the starter? 


Thanks

[sidthesloth]

You have a good strong spark, that is a good first step. next, are you getting fuel to the cylinder? Is your spark plug getting wet with fuel? If not then it could be a blockage in your carby, faulty reed valves, or a bad vacuum leak, gaskets or seals. does the engine feel to have good compression, or better still, are you able to do a compression test on it?

[Japennell]

Hello.  When I pulled the plug, there is definitely a strong gas smell on it.  It appears to be wet.

I will try to do the compression test tonight.

What psi should I be looking for?

Thanks

[sidthesloth]

I am not sure what the correct reading is supposed to be, but if you are over 100 you should be able to get it to start. Does it feel like it has a reasonable amount of compression?

[Japennell]

I really wont know until I test it with a compression tool.

It bothers me because the previous owner said the rings were replaced.  So, either he did that because of compression issues, or this scoot is just a mess...

[sidthesloth]

No, not such a mess that you can't get it going. Don't defeat yourself, there are plenty of other people to do that to you. The previous owner may have made a balls up of the ring replacement, but I wouldn't look at that yet. Just curiously, have you cleaned the air filter? perhaps try to start it without the air filter, just to rule that out.

[Japennell]

Oh yeah, speaking of air filter.  He replaced the OEM with an after market one that looks like the one shown here at the top of the page: http://www.scooterpartsplace.com/High-Performance-K-N-Style-Scooter-Air-Filter.aspx

The cone shape style.

I can try starting it with the filter off.

Another question please.  The kill switch is worn so I can not see for sure which is on and off.  Obviously when trying to start it, I used both settings.  Does anyone know which is the on setting allowing the scooter to start?

[sidthesloth]

If the air filter is new, it should be ok. I dont know about these scoots, but I think the standard is  down is on.

[JustWantToRide]

How are you getting a healthy blue spark?

*** From the Youtube video:

I'm not familiar with that model - but that sound in the viseo appears to me to be the contact for the starter solenoid.  I think he was testing the solenoid - but I want to reach out and punch him (press and hold the starter button!).  He doesn't hold the starter on and keep the camera on the multimeter.  From what I could tell though - his solenoid is bad.  He's getting a strong click (strong contact) but more than a .2v drop between the solenoids battery terminal and the starter motor strap. 

What he seems to be testing which applies to your bike - is that since it is activating the solenoid contact - that eliminates some problems.  But I think the solenoid is what I would check first.

Look at the solenoid contact to make sure that it is clean, and inspect the solenoid connections and windings to look for loose connections, contamination or discoloration. 

Measure the voltage drop between the solenoids battery terminal and the starter motor strap when engaging the starter - if it drops more than .2V replace the solenoid.

Measure the voltage drop between the two cable connections on the solenoid when engaging the starter - if it drops more than .2V replace the solenoid.

Measure the resistance between the solenoids ground bracket and it's control circuit terminal.  If it's more than 5 ohms then replace the solenoid.

A new starter solenoid should be under $15.  If you can get one cheap then the easiest way to check the solenoid is just to replace it...   *** 


But from what you've said you've got something else going on.  You installed a working battery but the gauges don't work.  Check your fuses - that might be why your electric starter isn't working.

When you use the kick start, you get nothing - what do you mean?  Do you turn the engine over, do you feel engine compression, do you get puffs from the exhaust? 

Of course - I'm still stuck on wanting to know how you know you are getting a good spark.  If you are getting a good spark then you should be able to kick start it.


Future advice:  When buying a non running vehicle never replace anything because the previous owner said it needed to be replaced.  If they knew what they were talking about then they would be selling a running vehicle...

[Japennell]

JustWantToRide (I like that name - that's how I feel right about now....)

I will try to provide replies:
1) "spark":  I did a spark test in the dark and could see a blue spark, no problem.
2) "get nothing": No smoke, no sound of the engine trying to turn over.  When I take the plug out, it does look wet (definitely smells of gas).  It is acting as if the kill switch were on all the time.  (I tried starting it in both positions as the markings are worn off and same results for both positions.)
3) "no gauges":  Actually, I do get the oil light turns on for a second.  The fuel gauge does not move.  I apologize for not being very accurate.  I am trying to work on two scooters at once and I am forgetting details at times.

If I have low compression, even with a good spark, could that result in my non start?

I will do compression test tonight.  I can say that there is a popping sound when I use kick start with the plug out.  That may mean nothing.  I do not recall if I had more resistance when using kick start with the plug in compared with it out.  In either case, I imagine the only means of telling the difference between an 85 psi and a 100 psi is with a gauge.  

Am I safe to assume that if I see a blue spark in my spark plug test, then I should not have to worry about anything else electrical if I try using just the kickstart to get this to turn over?  if so, then I will work on the electrical diagnostics once the engine can turn over via a kick start.


Thanks

[JustWantToRide]

What were you doing to get the spark?  Were you trying to kickstart the engine or trying to use the electric start?  If you are getting spark either of these 2 ways - then you should be able to get it to start.  If you've got it mixed up with the other scoot and actually aren't getting a spark - then you want to check the fuses, the cutoff switches for the sidestand, the brake switches, and the ignition switch. 

You don't need the starter or starter solenoid for anything except the electric starter.  I wouldn't bother fixing them since it has a kick starter. 

The engine will start and run with low compression - it just won't make much power and will smoke.  I've bought clapped out old 2 strokes that had hardly any compression at all and made no power - but could be kickstarted with a couple of fingers. 

The norm is to press the kill switch down in the front to kill the engine, push it down on the back (the rider side) to run.  But the handlebar kill switch should keep it from making the click - so that shouldn't be it.


***  Lets try something.  Excuse me if I mention something that seems obvious - but I don't know how familiar you are with these.  ***

1)  With the battery charged get on the bike, put the key in and turn it on, then retract the sidestand.  Did you see any little red lights (or other color) go out when you retracted the sidestand?  You probably don't have a light on your scoot - but if you do and it goes out when the stand is retracted - then that switch works.
2)  a)  With the key still on squeeze the left brake.  Is the brake light coming on?  If not - then that switch is broken or needs adjusting (cheap easy fix).
     b)  With the key still on squeeze the right brake.  Is the brake light coming on?  If not - then that switch is broken or needs adjusting (cheap easy fix).
     If neither brake lever will make the brake light come on - then that is your problem.  If both work then keep going.
3)  Hold the left brake lever strong enough to make the brake light come on and press the starter button.  Does it just click or does it try to turn the engine?  If it just         
     clicks once then hold the right brake lever and press the starter button.  If holding either brake lever and pressing the starter button makes the starter try to turn 
     the engine - then keep the brake on and keep the starter button pressed for a full 3 seconds (release if it starts).  If it doesn't start - then don't give it gas yet   
     because it is probably flooded.  Hold the starter button for a full 3 seconds each time.  About the 3rd try - give it just a little bit of gas.  Only try about 5 times
     before giving the starter a break and try kick starting it.  Spraying some "Hot Start" at the air intake may get it started and get you going.
     
     If it wasn't doing anything other than a single click then you need to check your solenoid.  If it clicked as long as you held the starter button - then either your 
     battery is too low - or your starter is bad - so you need to try kickstarting it.


Let us know how these go...

[Japennell]

See answers below:
What were you doing to get the spark?  Were you trying to kickstart the engine or trying to use the electric start?

I used both.   The kickstart gets a spark. Turn up volume to hear anything on the videos.  The electric start nothing.  

 If you are getting spark either of these 2 ways - then you should be able to get it to start.  If you've got it mixed up with the other scoot and actually aren't getting a spark - then you want to check the fuses, the cutoff switches for the sidestand, the brake switches, and the ignition switch.

You don't need the starter or starter solenoid for anything except the electric starter.  I wouldn't bother fixing them since it has a kick starter.

The engine will start and run with low compression - it just won't make much power and will smoke.  I've bought clapped out old 2 strokes that had hardly any compression at all and made no power - but could be kickstarted with a couple of fingers.

The norm is to press the kill switch down in the front to kill the engine, push it down on the back (the rider side) to run.  But the handlebar kill switch should keep it from making the click - so that shouldn't be it.


***  Lets try something.  Excuse me if I mention something that seems obvious - but I don't know how familiar you are with these.  ***

1)  With the battery charged get on the bike, put the key in and turn it on, then retract the sidestand.  Did you see any little red lights (or other color) go out when you retracted the sidestand?  You probably don't have a light on your scoot - but if you do and it goes out when the stand is retracted - then that switch works.

Dont have such a light.  Only item that lights up is the oil light and just for a few seconds or so.   Although my thumb was on the starter button, I only clicked it in for a second and then waited for the oil light to go away before trying again.

2)  a)  With the key still on squeeze the left brake.  Is the brake light coming on?  If not - then that switch is broken or needs adjusting (cheap easy fix).  Yes, the brake light comes on.

     b)  With the key still on squeeze the right brake.  Is the brake light coming on?  If not - then that switch is broken or needs adjusting (cheap easy fix).  Yes, the brake light comes on.

     If neither brake lever will make the brake light come on - then that is your problem.  If both work then keep going.
3)  Hold the left brake lever strong enough to make the brake light come on and press the starter button.  Does it just click or does it try to turn the engine?  It just clicks once.

 If it just clicks once then hold the right brake lever and press the starter button.  If holding either brake lever and pressing the starter button makes the starter try to turn
     the engine - then keep the brake on and keep the starter button pressed for a full 3 seconds (release if it starts). Nothing happens but a single click.  The starter is not doing anything.

 If it doesn't start - then don't give it gas yet  
     because it is probably flooded.  Hold the starter button for a full 3 seconds each time.  About the 3rd try - give it just a little bit of gas.  Only try about 5 times
     before giving the starter a break and try kick starting it.  Spraying some "Hot Start" at the air intake may get it started and get you going.
    
     If it wasn't doing anything other than a single click then you need to check your solenoid. Is the solenoid required for the kickstart?  I am assuming not.   If it clicked as long as you held the starter button - then either your
     battery is too low - or your starter is bad - so you need to try kickstarting it.


Let us know how these go...
Here is a video of the sound. I recorded the scoot from the side near the kickstart and then placed the phone in the engine compartment.  Finally you'll hear the clicks of my attempts at the electric start.

Thank you soo much for taking all your time like this to try to assist me.

[JustWantToRide]

The spark video shows the spark - but I can't tell how strong it is.  The good news is that since you are getting spark then you can rule out sidestand, kill switch and brake switch problems.  It is TRYING to start.

The electric start not cranking it over seems like a solenoid problem to me.  If so - then it should be a separate issue - and one that I wouldn't worry about fixing if you can get it to kickstart.  But you can't rule it out as a symptom of the not running problem until you get it starting.

When you hit the electric start button it makes the oil light come back on.  To me that seems odd, and it may be significant.  I'm suspicious of a short to ground somewhere in your ignition causing it - but I'm not familiar with your model so don't put too much into that.

Taking a step back - when you transported the bike you had it laying over some.  The only problem I've ever had with that is it cause a carburetor float to stick.  It was obvoius though because the bike peed all over me as soon as I turned the gas on.  You cleaned the carb after transporting it - and see the fuel moving with each kick.  That's leaving me with two possibilities (though I welcome other people to bring up more).

1)  It's getting fuel but no air, or it's getting so much fuel that it's drowning.
2)  The spark isn't strong enough to fire.

You said it's got a blue spark - so I would look at the fuel again.  Does it hav an air intake someone can put their hand over while you kick it - to see if it is taking in air?  It will be slight - but if you cover it completely with your hand you should feel it suck a little bit.  If you can feel it trying to suck air in - then remove the spark plug and blow out the cylinder with compressed air (yeah - messy).  Dry the plug off or use a new one.  Spray a squirt of hot start into the cylinder if you have it and replace the plug before it evaporates.  Give it no gas, but turn it on, hold the brake lever, and give it a dozen really good kicks.  If it doesn't fire at least once - then I'd have to say you should stop taking my advice because I'm not helping!   

[thebatman]

Hey guys, If i'm not mistaken... As long as you get a "click" sound from the start button, that means the relay is working. That's what you hear. It's located there at the battery..... That can happen with a low battery or the starter itself is in need of help Try a fresh battery or a "jump box"....
I would definately clean the carb again. Lord knows, i'll have to clean the same dam carb 3-4 times to get it good and clean.
Yeah, if your plug is wet, then i'd say it's flooded.. I have a 04 cobra with about the same issues there but i have low compression on mine so it won't start either... If you can, you need a compression test and see what your working with