Author Topic: Verbal Diarrhgnonis  (Read 8379 times)

Matty

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Verbal Diarrhgnonis
« on: October 18, 2011, 09:04:49 AM »
Morning all

I have recently purchased a second hand agility 50 and am starting to think I may have bought a bit of a pup. Can someone help with a bit of diagnosis on what my (several) problems might be? I know little about engines, but am a DIY/pull-it-apart-put-it-together-again nut so will likely end up doing any work myself. Having said that, the bike is still under warranty.

When I got the bike about 3 months ago, it had done 1440km (now around 3500km). I suspect it had been in storage for a while, and may have been modded somehow, though the seller “couldn’t remember”. To start with everything was running a-ok apart from the below:

Problem 1 – Acceleration on this thing is abysmal. I’m left for dead at traffic lights by people in lycra. Apart from being quite embarrassing, it’s quite dangerous. Having said that it tops out at 38mph on the speedo. Acceleration curve is rather odd – starts very slow and takes a long time to get to 20. 20-30 is not too bad and 0-30 takes about 16 seconds overall. Then at about 32mph, there’s a second “kick” in acceleration as if someone’s given me a bit of a push, and eventually it hits 38. Any ideas what might be going on? I’m not fussed about losing top end speed just need to improve acceleration. Best guess is someone has installed some funky rollers?

Anyway…having ridden the thing 20 miles a weekday for about 3 months now I’m starting to hit some different problems which may or may not have been exacerbated by the cold weather. They’re quite specific so can anyone help me with a diagnosis?

Symptom 1 – The bike is becoming hard to start, especially when it’s cold. Before the late cold weather, the bike would always start fine on the electric start. Now I seem to have to use the kick start more and more, and it usually takes 2 or 3 cranks to get the thing firing

Symptom 2 – Once the engine is ticking over from cold, for the first 10 seconds if I twist the throttle, the engine will dip and eventually cut out if I persist. After about 10 seconds, it will start moving ok (if slowly – see Symptom 3)

Symptom 3 – For the first 15 minutes of use, when I twist the throttle from standstill, the engine will dip first before picking up revs, then it accelerates as normal. After about 15 minutes, this more or less goes away

Symptom 4 – Occasionally (say one in every 20 rides) the bike will cut out when I hit the brakes hard, and sometimes will cut out at traffic lights when I come to a stop.

Hope that’s descriptive enough to allow a rough assessment. Here’s what I’ve tried so far:
-Replaced the spark plug. The old one had a fair amount of carbonation around it. The new spark plug made virtually no difference to the above problems
-Replaced engine and gear oil. Made no difference.
-Ran redex cleaner through it for about 8 tanks. No improvement (possibly worse?)
-Checked the air filter. Looks fine. Blew a bit of air through it.
-Took the top of the carb (I think). The rubber diaphragm looks perfectly clean and in good condition to me, but I didn’t look any further
-The fuel filter is full of fuel and I can’t see anything obvious in there but I have a replacement on order.


Questions:
-   What is the most likely 2 or 3 things that all this could be?
-   What order should I check them in when getting down to business? (ie. quickest/easiest/cheapest to hardest/slowest/most expensive would be a sensible order)
-   Which of these things is likely to be covered by the kymco warranty? Is the warranty only for parts?

Like I said I think it may have been stored for a few months without use so there may be some varnishing in the carburettor/fuel lines/tank, but I can’t be sure – what is the easiest way to check this?

Any help much appreciated. Am looking forward to getting my teeth into this to learn a bit about motorbikes. Probably the start of my next DIY obsession…

REDKYMCO

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Re: Verbal Diarrhgnonis
« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2011, 12:21:23 PM »
Has the service been kept upto date by the dealer as if not your warranty made be void although some dealers may overlook it depends if they want the work/hassle, also if it was not the dealer that has done the derestriction they will not be happy trying to find a fault that may have been caused by the previous owner experimenting with various set ups, he may have also put a bigger jet in the carb as part of the derestriction and could be running rich/leen if not done correctly hence the start/running problems, have you contacted a kymco dealer its kind of a hard one do you let them know its been derestricted or not unless you know for sure they done it....
IF IT IS NOT BROKE DONT FIX IT:)

juice

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Re: Verbal Diarrhgnonis
« Reply #2 on: October 18, 2011, 12:56:06 PM »
I don't know what "redex" is but after you change your fuel filter you should try some seafoam gas treatment . It will help clean your fuel system and stabilize the fuel . Good luck .

blue

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Re: Verbal Diarrhgnonis
« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2011, 01:07:46 PM »
with everything going on with your scoot it sounds like you just need valves adjustment and take and clean the whole carb realy realy good. Im working on mine now to and I found out I need a new carb the acceleration pump on the carb is done for so mine well act up to because of it.and with the miles you say you have on the scoot your warrenty is over.warrenty is for less then 1100km miles.

Matty

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Re: Verbal Diarrhgnonis
« Reply #4 on: October 18, 2011, 01:21:16 PM »
Has the service been kept upto date by the dealer as if not your warranty made be void although some dealers may overlook it depends if they want the work/hassle, also if it was not the dealer that has done the derestriction they will not be happy trying to find a fault that may have been caused by the previous owner experimenting with various set ups, he may have also put a bigger jet in the carb as part of the derestriction and could be running rich/leen if not done correctly hence the start/running problems, have you contacted a kymco dealer its kind of a hard one do you let them know its been derestricted or not unless you know for sure they done it....

Hi Thanks Kisbee. Difficult to know the history as the seller doesn't want to help me, and the dealer has gone bust. I can only assume it's been derestricted as I don't think they hit 38mph without modification. CDI is original and uncut though. Haven't checked jets yet. Everything else looks stock

REDKYMCO

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Re: Verbal Diarrhgnonis
« Reply #5 on: October 18, 2011, 01:23:07 PM »
I think the warranty in the uk is 2 years unlimited miles although mine is probably void now anyway as i serviced scoot myself. (blue) are you sure its only 1100km what is it time wise if that milage is correct i cant see it being more than 3 months where you live....
« Last Edit: October 18, 2011, 01:40:25 PM by kisbee »
IF IT IS NOT BROKE DONT FIX IT:)

Matty

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Re: Verbal Diarrhgnonis
« Reply #6 on: October 18, 2011, 01:23:18 PM »
I don't know what "redex" is but after you change your fuel filter you should try some seafoam gas treatment . It will help clean your fuel system and stabilize the fuel . Good luck .

Thanks Juice. I think redex is the same as seafoam. It's an injector cleaner that you put in your petrol tank to help clean out the gunge. Although I'm not sure how good redex is vs. seafoam.

Does anyone know of a better UK product than redex that might help? If I can clean without pulling the thing to pieces that would be great.

On the fuel filter front, I just got a cheapo one off ebay which said it was suitable for scooters. Is there much science to which filter I actually install, or will any one do?

Matty

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Re: Verbal Diarrhgnonis
« Reply #7 on: October 18, 2011, 01:27:41 PM »
with everything going on with your scoot it sounds like you just need valves adjustment and take and clean the whole carb realy realy good. Im working on mine now to and I found out I need a new carb the acceleration pump on the carb is done for so mine well act up to because of it.and with the miles you say you have on the scoot your warrenty is over.warrenty is for less then 1100km miles.

I think Kisbee is right on the warranty but I will check. 1100km sounds a little light. Pretty sure it's 2 years unlimited miles. Either way if they want to play hardball they can argue that I changed the spark plug. That said the first 2 services were done by a dealer so I could argue it a little.

Valve adjustment...is that a tough one to do and do I need any special tools? My reading suggests I might need a valve spring compressor tool. Is that true, or is it something I could actually bodge using standard tools?

The other one on my radar is cylinder compression - is there an easy way to check if this is the problem?

Thanks for all the help folks

REDKYMCO

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Re: Verbal Diarrhgnonis
« Reply #8 on: October 18, 2011, 01:38:07 PM »
You dont need a spring compressor thats only for removing the valves to adjust them you first need to remove the rocker cover to access them then you just need correct size spanner and a flathead screwdriver plus a set of feeler guages and the correct setting/gap which i can check for you in my manual, If you are going to attempt it yourself there are many videos on you tube that will help/show how its done just search (scooter valve adjustment) but i notice you say the bike has done liitle over 3000km i would not have thought the valves would be off by much at such low miles unless they were not set correct at manufacture but these guys on here have much more experiance than me with the agility's so i could be wrong....
« Last Edit: October 18, 2011, 01:47:37 PM by kisbee »
IF IT IS NOT BROKE DONT FIX IT:)

Resolve

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Re: Verbal Diarrhgnonis
« Reply #9 on: October 18, 2011, 01:50:05 PM »
Problem 1) I have this problem too, but that is because I have full derestrict but nothing done to variator.  From start about 15 to 20 mph its ok but nothing fancy.  from 20 to 30 mph it seems sluggish and then from about 30 to max out it seems to have decent go.  my average is about 38 with hitting 40 on a godd day with even surface.  

Some days mine is better and the hesistations are less noticeable, but those are ideal temperature days around 70 to 80 degrees.  less than that or more than that it has struggles.

Change variator, roller wieghts, and torque spring (which most people do on here) and that should get better acceleration and make the lag between 20 to 30 be close to if not completely non existant.


Symptoms 1 - 3 I have all of those on some days when it is colder like you said. Not freezing cold but if it is in the 50 to 60 F range then it does actual hardheaded.  This I think is a cross between needing a good carb cleaning and valve adjustment.  I am at 6500km and have done neither.  I will do them both this weekend.  Since in the last week after my recent oil change my scoot has seemed to loss a little top end and acceleration is lacking.

Symptom 4 - I have had this happen twice.  But it was after I recently fueled up and prior to fueling up the tank was close to empty.  and I am currently attributing it to something occuring due to the low fuel prior to fill up. Maybe trash or something in the line.  Since both times it tried to recrank but had to pump the throttle since it was acting like it wasnt getting fuel.  But then once cranked had no issues at all.

Hope these help and give insight that you are the only one and most things happening sound like normal stuff just needs cleaning up.  My scoot has had all oil changes and gear changes most times early on regular basis due to amount I drive and even have keep air filter clean.

Good Luck.

Matty

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Re: Verbal Diarrhgnonis
« Reply #10 on: October 18, 2011, 01:59:08 PM »
You dont need a spring compressor thats only for removing the valves to adjust them you first need to remove the rocker cover to access them then you just need correct size spanner and a flathead screwdriver plus a set of feeler guages and the correct setting/gap which i can check for you in my manual, If you are going to attempt it yourself there are many videos on you tube that will help/show how its done just search (scooter valve adjustment) but i notice you say the bike has done liitle over 3000km i would not have thought the valves would be off by much at such low miles unless they were not set correct at manufacture but these guys on here have much more experiance than me with the agility's so i could be wrong....

Thanks Kisbee. Checked youtube. Feeler gauges purchased and on their way. Like you say it is a newish bike. Will wait to hear any other thoughts before I tuck in! If not, sounds like an interesting weekend ahead...

REDKYMCO

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Re: Verbal Diarrhgnonis
« Reply #11 on: October 18, 2011, 02:01:49 PM »
Resolve.... another reason why your top end can vary from day to day is atmospheric air pressure ever driven a car up a hill/moutain when you get near top even tho your no longer climbing your vehicle can lack power this is because the air pressure has dropped and your engine is not taking as much air in as normal, the same happen's at sea level depending on weather time of year etc...
« Last Edit: October 18, 2011, 02:32:05 PM by kisbee »
IF IT IS NOT BROKE DONT FIX IT:)

woodcutter

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Re: Verbal Diarrhgnonis
« Reply #12 on: October 18, 2011, 02:28:29 PM »
I think it just needs complete carburetor cleaning but use compressed air to clean all passages. I had some running problems, cleaned jets but had no improvements. blasting compr. air through all passages solved my poor running and stalling probs. 
also try derestricting cdi if you said it have no cut on it.this is going to solve your acceleration problems if there is smooth vaiator boss installed.
check valve clearence but I think it's ok and see what jet size is in carb 

woodcutter

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Re: Verbal Diarrhgnonis
« Reply #13 on: October 18, 2011, 02:36:22 PM »
I don't like seafoam or simmilar products on this type of engine and fuel supply. there is only on complicated electronic fuel injection.
there's nothing better than manualy cleaning complete fuel system on agility

Resolve

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Re: Verbal Diarrhgnonis
« Reply #14 on: October 18, 2011, 02:47:17 PM »
Resolve.... another reason why your top end can vary from day to day is atmospheric air pressure ever driven a car up a hill/moutain when you get near top even tho your no longer climbing your vehicle can lack power this is because the air pressure has dropped and your engine is not taking as much air in as normal, the same happen's at sea level depending on weather time of year etc...
I understand that.  But the last few days it has been somewhat struggling to hit 35 and accelerate.  So thinking it needs a good cleaning.  I mean going down a Hill it still hit 40ish and then held good at about 38 on the flat but from dead stop it took a bit to get going then got to 35 and kinda flattend out.  I know part could of been weather.  but I had no wind and a flat road so the way it felt just didn't feel normal.  But I have been meaning to check valves and clean carb just never had time.  But this weekend I have no plans and we will see.  PLus on a few heels and small bridges it is horrid especialyl with wind.  But I am at sea level for the most part and next to the river coming in from the ocean. 

I rode my Wife's scoot today and probably through the end of the week.  Hers is a 2 stroke 50cc Hyosung Prima.  I love the acceleration and easy of keeping speed/lack of speed loss on the bridges.  Hers has no dead spot and easily hits 38 and normally hits around 40 on average. I actually hit 45 going down hill today in hers.  my stops at 42ish.  Only withdraw is her gas mileage. This is only with derestriction.  not variator changes.

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