Author Topic: Is warming up essential from cold start?  (Read 23070 times)

bunker buster

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Is warming up essential from cold start?
« on: February 21, 2012, 05:01:41 AM »
I have the Kymco GV, on cold morning it takes 5-7 minutes for the engine to warm up. There are times I'm late for work I would just start the engine and go but avoid revving the engine.

Will this harm the engine?

ts1

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Re: Is warming up essential from cold start?
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2012, 07:59:54 AM »
There are times I'm late for work I would just start the engine and go but avoid revving the engine.
Will this harm the engine?
That's the best you can do for the engine - warming up with medium load.
Idling is useless, wasted fuel and wasted waering and pollution.

axy

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Re: Is warming up essential from cold start?
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2012, 09:15:26 AM »
I have the Kymco GV, on cold morning it takes 5-7 minutes for the engine to warm up. There are times I'm late for work I would just start the engine and go but avoid revving the engine.

Will this harm the engine?

I am with ts1.
"Warming up" engine of a stationary vehicle is waste of time, money and energy (literally).
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Kymco People GT300i 2017 ABS Euro4
Kymco Agility 125 2008

(Past: Kymco People 250S, Piaggio Beverly 200, Kawasaki ZR-7S, Yamaha TW125, Kymco Cobra Cross 50, Peugeot Zenith 50, Piaggio NRG 50 mc2 72 cc Naraku kit)

SteveM

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Re: Is warming up essential from cold start?
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2012, 07:11:14 PM »
My People S 125 has an automatic choke so I just get on her and go.

fshfindr

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Re: Is warming up essential from cold start?
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2012, 08:00:10 PM »
I start and go.  If it's running without strange noises, the oil is getting around, and that's all you need.  Actually, I start it before I put on my helmet, then go.

Richard L.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2012, 08:01:57 PM by fshfindr »
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JustWantToRide

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Re: Is warming up essential from cold start?
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2012, 08:47:58 PM »
Sit on it, Start it, Ride off.  If the engine is obviously running cold then I try to keep the throttle where it seems to be running the smoothest.

I don't like idling to warm up an engine. 
2009 Xciting 500Ri
   52mpg so far

bunker buster

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Re: Is warming up essential from cold start?
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2012, 12:18:18 AM »
Alright I'm in good company.  Thanks for the feedback.

blue

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Re: Is warming up essential from cold start?
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2012, 01:03:25 AM »
leting a scoot worm up a few min.is good for the scoot in the long run dont be in a hurry to take of leting it worm up can safe you some cash later.

zombie

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Re: Is warming up essential from cold start?
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2012, 01:10:57 AM »
OOOOOPPPPPSSSSS! I should have let this one go but... When the oil is cold it is too thick to flow thru the tiny oil pump in you engines. Therefore the engine relies on residual oil for cold starts. The auto choke is now on adding extra fuel that can wash the cylinder clean. Yes Kymco has taken steps to negate these ill effects so it is not a big issue. The other problem is the piston will expand faster than the Cylinder creating tighter tolerances. The valve train has not warmed to the point of closing the gap between the rockers, and valves so riding cold is really "slapping" the valve stems. Idling is also not good for these engines. Soooooo Start it let it run for 3-4 minutes, and shut it off. The residual heat will thin the oil, expand the cylinder, and close the valve lash. This takes another few minutes.
I only posted this for the TRULY anal people. I always warm my engines first.
"They have nothing in their whole imperial arsenal that can break the spirit of one Irishman who doesn't want to be broken."   Bobby Sands...

blue

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Re: Is warming up essential from cold start?
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2012, 02:18:40 AM »
well said zombie.

zombie

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Re: Is warming up essential from cold start?
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2012, 04:40:25 AM »
"They have nothing in their whole imperial arsenal that can break the spirit of one Irishman who doesn't want to be broken."   Bobby Sands...

axy

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Re: Is warming up essential from cold start?
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2012, 11:05:39 AM »
OOOOOPPPPPSSSSS! I should have let this one go but... When the oil is cold it is too thick to flow thru the tiny oil pump in you engines. .

I have commented this many times on the forum. This was very true 40 or 50 years ago, especially with mineral mono-grade oils of lower quality.
Nowadays, good semi-synthetic 10W-40 oil has the same lubrication (flowing) characteristics at -30 C and +130 C, so warm vs. cold oil is not an issue anymore.

The biggest problem is the time it takes for the oil to reach all parts of the system after initial cranking, and this is why manufacturers have started adding "stickiness" additives, usually magnesium based,so enough oil "clings" to various moving parts of the engine until fresh oil flushes everything upon start. I know that for car engines, it can take 10-12 seconds for the sump oil to flow fully through some large engines during cold start, and it is probably just a few seconds for small scooter engines.

I am aware you said that this topic is valid for those "anally retentive", so I am just broadening the perspective, and my opinion is that oil flow during cold start with good quality oil of modern oil companies is not a serious topic. It surely was in 50's and 60's.

It is true that the engine part dimensions change with change of temperature. Temperature expansion coefficient of aluminum is, for example, roughly double the TEC of cast iron. Considering that engines operate in temperatures between -30 and +120 C (extremes), parts are not made to be perfect fits, but certain tolerance is calculated and oil, gaskets, O rings etc. are used to fill the gaps and provide compression. It would be, in fact, very difficult to comment if the engine runs better in terms of parts fitting "better" when cold or warm. This may sound like a paradox, but engine is a collection of connected bits that are worn differently, therefore gaps are different in different parts, and these gaps increase as the engine ages. It is true that thermal expansion (warm vs. cold engine) might make up for some of that wear, but new engine is not fitted to be "tight" either. Really, the system is too stochastic to draw any definitive conclusions about this.

However, undoubtedly, engines that reach working temperature of 90 C run the best and wear the least and it is only logical to reach that temperature using the engine in moderate rev range and driving, and not wearing it while it is stationary, and then wear the engine by using it (driving it).
« Last Edit: February 22, 2012, 12:51:28 PM by axy »
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(Past: Kymco People 250S, Piaggio Beverly 200, Kawasaki ZR-7S, Yamaha TW125, Kymco Cobra Cross 50, Peugeot Zenith 50, Piaggio NRG 50 mc2 72 cc Naraku kit)

ts1

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Re: Is warming up essential from cold start?
« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2012, 11:33:37 AM »
With idling the engine takes much longer to warm up than with driving.
You can read the data from OBD 2 etc. (example from Lexus IS 200):
idling initial exhaust gas temperature: 350°C, cruising: 5-600°C
idling initial cooling system warm up: <=0.1K/s; cruising: >= 0.3K/s.
This should approximately apply to every otto engine.

(Scooter) Engine idling is useless for the transmission (push a Burgman650 before/after the trip!).

As zombie and axy stated, engines have residual oil pockets and the oil is adhesive, lubricating takes only few revs - a second.

Last but not least: Idling warm up is just prohibited in my country.

blue

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Re: Is warming up essential from cold start?
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2012, 02:11:29 PM »
beleave me you can harm something like the crank it well bend if to much presure put on it.
I know because I have done it. Rideing with cold oil puts presure on parts that cant handle it.
So it all come down to( HOW LONG DO YOU WANT YOUR SCOOT TO LAST) :'(

axy

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Re: Is warming up essential from cold start?
« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2012, 02:47:50 PM »
Rideing with cold oil puts presure on parts that cant handle it.

Is there some magic property of warmed up oil that diminishes that "pressure", so parts can handle it?
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Kymco People GT300i 2017 ABS Euro4
Kymco Agility 125 2008

(Past: Kymco People 250S, Piaggio Beverly 200, Kawasaki ZR-7S, Yamaha TW125, Kymco Cobra Cross 50, Peugeot Zenith 50, Piaggio NRG 50 mc2 72 cc Naraku kit)

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