Is warming up essential from cold start?

[zombie]

Hit the Nail Frank T.
"It is jetted unreasonably lean because of the application of automobile and truck pollution standards even though M/C and scooter exhaust contribute only about 2% of the vehicle pollution."
 This statement caught my eye. While the initial idea of the statement sounds correct I don't think many are aware that Motorcycles/motor scooters put out as much as 10,000 time as much of certain pollutants! I can look them up to post but so can anyone that disbelieves.
Not too start another crisis, just an interesting fact.
And now ... Back to our show!

[axy]

This statement caught my eye. While the initial idea of the statement sounds correct I don't think many are aware that Motorcycles/motor scooters put out as much as 10,000 time as much of certain pollutants!

2 stroke for sure.

I would not say that would be true for 4 stroke scooters, and especially not for those currently being sold as new. Most vehicles produced after 2001. are at least Euro III compliant, so there is no reason why my People 4 stroke would cause some extremely excessive pollution compared to other vehicles sold after 2001. This is why it has secondary exhaust fumes recirculation, for example... However, I am not sure that norms for cars and bikes are the same.

It also depends on what is the baseline for comparison. 2 stroke 500 cc motorcycle from 1970s will for sure put out more pollutants than 1000cc Euro VI engine.

[Peters]

Hit the Nail Frank T.
While the initial idea of the statement sounds correct I don't think many are aware that Motorcycles/motor scooters put out as much as 10,000 time as much of certain pollutants! I can look them up to post but so can anyone that disbelieves.
Not too start another crisis, just an interesting fact.
And now ... Back to our show!

It's true. Mythbusters did an episode on this. They compared car vs. motorcycle from 80s, 90s, and 00s.

Cars and trucks, in the US at least, are much more regulated than motorcycles.

[zombie]

There are certain unregulated by products that all engines emit (2t / 4t). The smaller "more efficient" motors actually emit far more PPM than their larger "less efficient " counter parts. Nitrogen sulphate something, and carbon hydrochloride something. Basically acid rain ingredients I think.
The whole subject is counter intuitive!

2t's are on their death bed in the U.S.. No more NEW 2t outboards/scooters/cycles unless they meet guidelines so strict they are no longer efficient/cost effective to buy. Never mind the fun factor... Who wants a Cat Converter on a 490cc Moto Cross Expansion chamber. Defeats the purpose.

[zombie]

http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~kenneth-weston/chapter3.pdf    It's all in here. About 1/3rd of the way down the document. Engine temp. is a factor as well.
 NOT trying to goad any responses, just some interesting reading if you like that kind of stuff.

[streido]

If you look at Asian countries, even the modern ones, where scooter use is far more popular than cars, they all suffer from smog and polution in the air much more than in the West. Granted in some areas they run their old scoots till they die but even the new modern asiian countries where they have cheap new chinese scoots its pretty bad.

Be interesting to see if anyone did an experiment on how much better or worse overall for the enviroment running a modern scoot everyday compares to a modern car. Sombody must have looked at the data for that?

Im with Zombie in that they are more polluting in general  since they do give out more ppm's but given that they use less fuel and oil i assume that ove the year it would work out greener overall. I think  

[Frank T]

Im with Zombie in that they are more polluting in general  since they do give out more ppm's but given that they use less fuel and oil i assume that ove the year it would work out greener overall. I think  
[/quote]



One reason that your V8 Suburban, that gets 12 mpg, TESTS out cleaner than your scooter is because they inject air into the exhaust to aid in after-combustion burning of hydrocarbons and to dilute the discharge so it looks like it is cleaner in exhaust gas analysis. Put an air pump on your scooter to blow air into the exhaust port and  mount a Cat then test.

Counter intuitive or not, given the choice of being locked in a garage with a running scooter or a running Suburban for 20 minutes..........

EVEN with scoots and bikes being less clean, they still make up about 2% of the measurable, not calculated, pollutants in the USA.

Taiwan has scooter lanes because they would rather trade the less efficient combustion by-products from 50cc scooters for the massive pollutants, congestion, grid lock and landfill gorging from cars and trucks also carrying one person.

My Stella scooter is a 150cc 2T that is EPA approved and there are new DIRECT GAS INJECTION  systems that make 2T engines EPA compliant.  Austria has recently approved a 2T outboard for use in their pristine alpine lakes.

It is curious that a post on an opinion about warming up an engine gets hijacked by environmentalism.

[streido]

Man, 12mpg!!! Glad i live in Europe where most cars do at least 40-50mpg otherwise i could never afford to fill my tank.

I didnt buy my scoot for any other reason than it was fun to ride and it gets me to work for around 1/5 of the cost of running my car every day, if it helps the enviroment thats good too but its not a factor on what i ride. For me its more about getting a cheap thrill and not being stuck in traffic in a metal box on a sunny day.

[Peters]

Most cars and trucks in Europe, or the US, can't tow 12,000 Lbs either.

[zombie]

"Be interesting to see if anyone did an experiment on how much better or worse overall for the enviroment running a modern scoot everyday compares to a modern car. Sombody must have looked at the data for that?"

Yeah! That's what got me thinking about warming up scoots, and warming engines in general. The whole consensus seem to be : warm engines run better than cold engines. Then I started thinking about why, and that lead to incomplete combustion or wasted fuel, and that lead to if the whole world drove scooters... We would all choke to death!.
Funny how things happen! Cool thread.

[axy]

If you look at Asian countries, even the modern ones, where scooter use is far more popular than cars, they all suffer from smog and polution in the air much more than in the West. Granted in some areas they run their old scoots till they die but even the new modern asiian countries where they have cheap new chinese scoots its pretty bad.

I would not say that pollution in African and Asian countries is present because of cheap Chinese scooters, but lack of any industrial emission standards.
I have been to many countries where they do not drive scooters, yet the pollution is nothing short of incredible.

[streido]

Axy, all i know is that scooters seem to be the main motorised form of transport in China for example, where during the Olympics recently they had to basically ban all transport from the roads several days a week in order to fall within the accepted smog levels for the Olympic committe standards. That would lead me to the conclusion that most of the pollution came from cars, trucks, buses, bikes and scoots, bit i could be wrong.

[axy]

Man, 12mpg!!! Glad i live in Europe where most cars do at least 40-50mpg otherwise i could never afford to fill my tank.

I didnt buy my scoot for any other reason than it was fun to ride and it gets me to work for around 1/5 of the cost of running my car every day,

Well, I use my scooter also as a daily commuting tool, but I am not sure that driving scooters is that cheap. It all depends on which scooter you drive and to which car you compare it. The bigger the scooter, the worse off you are, I think that the best ratio is with 125 cc 4 stroke scooters.

For example, I have 110 hp gasoline powered car that consumes <7.5 l/100 km if driven nicely. My 250 cc scooter consumes 5 l/100 km. Insurance costs less, but it does not cost much if you drive a small car either. Service intervals are so short that if you go by the book, you will get screwed royally - every 3000 kms. Many people commuting from suburban areas cover 80-100 kms in a day (in Italian cities, for example), and the cost would pile up.

Of you compare very tiny new car with 500 cc scooter, I would say that TCO of a small car could easily be lower than TCO of 500 cc scooter, if covered distance is significant (25.000+ kms per year). After 60-70.000 kms you can scrap most scoots or invest heavily in big time maintenance, and car is only in 1/3-1/2 of its life span.

I will not enter into small diesel car discussion - they could consume less than 250 cc scoot.

I always saw scoots as very convenient commuters, but I do not think they are extremely cheap - unless they are 125cc with low initial purchase cost.

[streido]

I run my acoot most days to work, it costs me around £5-£6/week on fuel but if i run my Mazda turbo diesel hatchback it costs me £25/wk, and thats just on fuel alone. Factor in Insurance, taxes, tyres, servicing and parts and i estimate that over the year i save a minimum of £1000, easily. I only run a 50cc Agility tho.

Just read this arcticle, compares car use to scooter, pretty interesting. http://scooterunderground.ca/knowledge/ScooterPollution.htm

[axy]

Axy, all i know is that scooters seem to be the main motorised form of transport in China for example, where during the Olympics recently they had to basically ban all transport from the roads several days a week in order to fall within the accepted smog levels for the Olympic committe standards. That would lead me to the conclusion that most of the pollution came from cars, trucks, buses, bikes and scoots, bit i could be wrong.

Coal is main energy source in China (70%), and we are not talking here about coal used in German thermoelectric plants with closed zero emission systems, but open ones, with emission directly into atmosphere. They have insignificant hydroelectric sources and they have just started developing 30+ nuclear powerplants (now, THIS is going to be fun!)

Surprisingly, the biggest source of pollution in China is not traffic or industry but - farming!