Author Topic: Project Electronic Fuel Injection  (Read 32420 times)

Mexwall

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Re: Project Electronic Fuel Injection
« Reply #105 on: July 13, 2014, 06:37:46 PM »
To bad that people who have one bad experience with a product try to warn everybody with shouting "don't buy from this company or this or that, because ...." all over the internet.

For every bad experience there are always more good ones. Read this topic and you can see it's not all bad.


Mine arrived in perfect condition. Still installing the set. Support from Ecotrons is fine up till now.

zombie

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Re: Project Electronic Fuel Injection
« Reply #106 on: July 13, 2014, 06:49:40 PM »
He was going for MPG more than MPH. I think fuel is like 4 bucks a liter there

It's wayyyyy to easy to get carried away moding these things. 5G's in a 2t ZX is a bit out of line also.

What did that FI kit end up costing if I may ask.
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Mexwall

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Re: Project Electronic Fuel Injection
« Reply #107 on: July 13, 2014, 06:59:26 PM »
5 G's is 500?? Sorry I'm not familiar with the term G's.  ???


Mine has cost 400 euro's/545 dollar sofar, including shipping and taxes.

zombie

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Re: Project Electronic Fuel Injection
« Reply #108 on: July 13, 2014, 07:08:17 PM »
5,000.00 USD. That's all in total. Not a penny figured in for all the labor but it is an 80+ MPH bike.
 Could'a built a Harley for less.
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Mexwall

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Re: Project Electronic Fuel Injection
« Reply #109 on: July 13, 2014, 07:14:41 PM »
Oef!, that's a lot off money.

But does it ride the way you want it? If yes, than the investment was all worth it   ;D.

I'm also looking for better drivability and more MPG. Extra MPH is a benefit.

zombie

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Re: Project Electronic Fuel Injection
« Reply #110 on: July 13, 2014, 07:22:31 PM »
Yeah it did exactly what I wanted it to do. No complaints there.
I just lost interest. It'll be a bargain for the guy that wants it but I haven't found anyone capable of running/maintaining it.

I was strictly looking for MPH. Riding the bike as a daily is almost out of the question now. It's getting 15-18 miles to a full tank PLUS the 4 bucks for Platinum 32 2t oil per tank. It's costing about .50 cents a mile to run.

Great job eh!
"They have nothing in their whole imperial arsenal that can break the spirit of one Irishman who doesn't want to be broken."   Bobby Sands...

BettinANDlosing

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Re: Project Electronic Fuel Injection
« Reply #111 on: July 13, 2014, 07:26:26 PM »
If I get a c rap product, I'll warn people about it hands down. I am with you on that one, the ecotrons support is pretty dang good for a company like that. But the kit is so damn cheap-o. I like my bike to be reliable, and carb was the way to go for that. I also paid about $500 for the unit. Huge waste of money IMHO
2002 Kymco B&W 300; MRP 78MM "300CC", Naraku cam, Yoshimura rS3 exhaust, 17g Sliders, Yellow torque spring drilled airbox, stock carb #115 main #40 pj.

2001 "Yamaha" Zuma AKA MBK Booster; MHR OverRange, Dellorto 19mm BHBG, Polini "big" intake, RS-3 Rear shock, Stock cylinder.

zombie

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Re: Project Electronic Fuel Injection
« Reply #112 on: July 13, 2014, 07:37:37 PM »
+
I'd kinda like to set one up but.... 500.00

It might be easier to strip a Junker for the parts.
"They have nothing in their whole imperial arsenal that can break the spirit of one Irishman who doesn't want to be broken."   Bobby Sands...

baddi

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Re: Project Electronic Fuel Injection
« Reply #113 on: October 01, 2014, 09:02:11 AM »
I bought the ecotrons kit, wrote horrible quality. Not worthy the money at all. Super cheap China product for top dollar. Warning DON'T BUY ECOTRONS!!!!!!!!! mine ended up coming out of the box with a cracked fuel injection mounting bung on the throttle body, a bad ecu, and a fuel pump that couldn't keep up with demands. Sure the principals behind fuel injection is nice in theory, but if you can't trust your fuel injection to get you out of town then what's the point? Also is your agility 2t? The agility in us is 4t. Also if you're law requires to be below 38kph why the hell after you spending so much money of the bike?

Sorry to hear about a bad experience. It is chineese manufactured, that's true, but i never had any problem with its quality. :D

I'm still driving my agility with the fuel injection kit on it. :)

So far the problems i've had has been with the installing on the bike, mainly that one should be sure that there are enough space for the lambda sensor and the fuel system even when the shocks are fully compressed when you drive over a bump a bit too fast. Also, i once accidentally short-circuted when i was trying to remove some corrosion on the connectors and i burned out an ECU and a MAP sensor. :)

The problems i've experienced that has not been due to hardware problems has simply been myself messing around with numbers in ProCal that i did not fully understand. :)
I'm now getting around 117 mpg (50 km/l) while being restricted to 23mph or 37 km/h @ 7500 rpm and driving 100% urban. The acceleration is not as fast as it used to be, but what can you expect from an engine that has driven 17.000 km and has seen rpm up to 12.500? :D
I might need to fit a new cylinder i have lying around soon, when the original finally wears down and then i expect the acceleration to be forceful again. I still outrun most restricted 2-strokes when setting off from a red light, though. Until i get to my restriction and they still have a couple more km/h. ;)

The money i spent on this bike has been as a hobby as well as getting the bike improved. The EFI kit will have paid for its initial buying price in less than 2000 km :)
I haven't bought any new parts for it the past 6 months though, as i just moved to the city and started studying as a mechanical engineer.
First Kymco agility 50 (2008) 11.000+ km (dead)
Second kymco agility 50 (2010) 20.000+ km. Project Fuel Injection. Stolen.
Kymco K-pipe 125 (2014) 7400 km.

zombie

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Re: Project Electronic Fuel Injection
« Reply #114 on: October 01, 2014, 11:59:53 AM »
Nice to see you Baddi,. Thanks for updating this thread.

I've started rebuilding a "69 Triumph 650 engine for a hard-tail frame I have, and I am looking around the scrap yards for any old 600=700 cc FI bike to claim the injection system from. This will be a highway bike, and mileage is my goal. I have a modded Sportster tank that holds 3.5 gallons, and no real desire to pull over every 100 miles for fuel.

Crazy as it is most of the scrap yards get real greedy when they know you are after the injection system. If you want the engine... 2-3 hundred bucks. If you want just the electrics... 5-6 hundred. I guess they all know what time it is...

Good luck in school!
"They have nothing in their whole imperial arsenal that can break the spirit of one Irishman who doesn't want to be broken."   Bobby Sands...

Mexwall

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Re: Project Electronic Fuel Injection
« Reply #115 on: October 01, 2014, 08:55:15 PM »
Good to hear from your Baddi and good to hear your set is still running fine.

I've installed mine on a test scooter and it started and ran on the first try  ;D. And your right, making it fit to my scooter was the most work. Now I'm redoing the cables set to fit my scotter better.

Good luck in school!

zombie

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Re: Project Electronic Fuel Injection
« Reply #116 on: October 01, 2014, 11:29:21 PM »
Keep us posted... Both of you, please.
"They have nothing in their whole imperial arsenal that can break the spirit of one Irishman who doesn't want to be broken."   Bobby Sands...

baddi

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Re: Project Electronic Fuel Injection
« Reply #117 on: October 02, 2014, 11:23:56 AM »
Great to hear that someone else is using this.

In Denmark i've only found a single person other than me, but he gave up without even trying to tune it, because it ran worse out of the box than when it was carburated... Pussy...

There's not really much to update about, as i haven't changed much lately, but i realise that i have not updated this post as much as on the danish forums, so i guess i'll get you up to date. :D

Low fuel pressure is diagnosted by a rich mixture at idle along with sounds of possible misfiring and flooding, while it's possible that you can drive at very low throttle with the engine sprutting and flooding and then being completely lean at WOT. :)
This is because there will still be quite some fuel injected, for use at low loads, but that the vapourisation is not good enough and it is not able to supply enough fuel for high loads at all. :D
Fix: check your fuel supply for leaks and possibly change your fuel filter. An EFI engine filters much more fuel through the filter than a carburatated, because fuel is circulated by the pump.

Then there are wierd symotoms. Low fuel pressure symptoms when the engine is cold or when you have idled for a bit, but running normally after a bit. The problem here is possibly that the fuel relay is not conducting enough amps. Since this problem is not existing when the engine has been running fair rpm after a while, you could suspect that the battery voltage alone cannot give enough amps, while the increased voltage of the charging system can. The cause is either too much restriction in the wires or a bad battery.
Fix: Get a relay which is sealed to avoid rust in the relay, check your wires for oxidation at connectors and possibly get a new battery.

If you try to fix the problem above by fiddling with the factor MAP_fwWmp_N_Ld (weightening of warmup factor dependent on rpm and load), you might have a quick fix, but you're in for a bad time. The engine will be impossible to tune properly and if you are using autotuning with ALM, the engine will try to compensate for this, and you will end up with the original problem, but while the engine thinks it has volumetric efficientcies of 150% and like that. Messing with the factor MAP_fwWmp_N_Ld won't fix a hardware problem. Don't do it, diagnosting the consequenses afterwards are hard as f***. :D



Also. Removing all restrictions in the air filter of the agility and making the diameter difference between the throttle body and the intake valve opening gradually changing will give you inlet manifold pressures (at WOT) at or above atmospheric pressure from 7-8000 rpm while still having volumetric efficientcies at close to 100%. Bad thing is that there is a significant air temperature rise in the original air filter. A 10-20 degrees celsius rise is not unnormal, especially if you drive in cities, where the black filterbox can be a heatsink at red lights. I am unsure if changing the colour of the air box will change anything, as i have spoken with my brother who studies physics and he say that a black box is both the best at absorbing heat, but also the best at radiating it again.
Perhaps you could control the flow of heat by having the inside of the air box white while having the exterior black, exept for the part in direct sunligt and the part closest facing the engine. :p
But anyway, the point was that you are feeding the engine hot air with the stock filter, but you are doing it efficiently.


One of the few things i have changed is that i am using the "new" fuel pump type, because i can have a more simple network of fuel lines. Nothing else than cosmetics and space saving.
I've also fitted a 2.5 bar MAP sensor instead of the original 1.05 bar, to prepare the EFI for boost. All i had to change was three values. VAL_uMapDropIntkMin=0.4, VAL_PmapGrd=500 and VAL_PmapOfs=100.
Also installed 3 bar pressure regulator (now standard) instead of the 2.5 bar that they previously used. For some reason, Matt seemed not to understand me, when i asked if i should change anything when installing this, so i didn't change anything and it didn't rally do anything either....
I installed a 60 g/min injector instead of the 38 g/min injector to prepare for boost and after changing the values in the program, it ran just fine. :)
So no new components that has changed anything. Just some other components that can do about the same. :D

I still haven't dared to advance the ignition angle as it is already at 35,25 compared to the original 28 degrees. :)
First Kymco agility 50 (2008) 11.000+ km (dead)
Second kymco agility 50 (2010) 20.000+ km. Project Fuel Injection. Stolen.
Kymco K-pipe 125 (2014) 7400 km.

zombie

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Re: Project Electronic Fuel Injection
« Reply #118 on: October 02, 2014, 12:07:31 PM »
WOW! Baddi, you have become my new Super Hero. It sounds like you have gone thru every worm hole in the universe, and come out smiling. If nothing else the education you gained, and shared is worth it.

If I have issues setting up my Triumph, YOU will be the first person I contact. (run for the hills brother).

I hope the whole forum applauds you as much as I do. You have accomplished something that not many would even dare to try, let alone pursue to the end.

Skoal!
"They have nothing in their whole imperial arsenal that can break the spirit of one Irishman who doesn't want to be broken."   Bobby Sands...

baddi

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Re: Project Electronic Fuel Injection
« Reply #119 on: October 02, 2014, 01:08:59 PM »
WOW! Baddi, you have become my new Super Hero. It sounds like you have gone thru every worm hole in the universe, and come out smiling. If nothing else the education you gained, and shared is worth it.

If I have issues setting up my Triumph, YOU will be the first person I contact. (run for the hills brother).

I hope the whole forum applauds you as much as I do. You have accomplished something that not many would even dare to try, let alone pursue to the end.

Skoal!

I am very glad you feel this way. :)

Yes, i have learned a lot from this project, and that, along with the larger possibilities of fiddling with the engine, has been one of the things i think i've paid for. The sensors and the ability to be in full control has really given my knowledge of this engine a boost. Especially along with the wideband lambda sensor.

I have tested, that the original carburator will run lean in the mid-throttle if you jet it to run stoich at WOT and that it will be rich at WOT if you jet it to never run lean. Also, if you chose the rich at WOT at 7300 rpm, it will be closer to stoich when you near 10.000 rpm. :)
The carburator is a big compromise and the best you can get is kinda rich all over.

An #80 jet for me gave around an AFR at around 11 at 7000 with closer to 12-13 when you near 9000. If i remember right, i did these tests the summer of 2013 and the only thing i remember for sure was that it was impossible to get a great AFR all over with the carburator. :)

Regarding the AFR, i might have said this before, but the cocio brown colour comes from around 11-12, which is great for a two-stroke that needs the lubrication and cooling but is far too rich for a four-stroke. The stoich AFR of 14,7 will give a gray colour on the spark plug and more power than the 11-12, but what has given me the best throttle response and power has been around 13-14, which still gives a kind of gray'ish colour. :)
Below 12 (rich) gives you lack of power and above 15 (lean) gives you a serious lack of power. But the agility engine won't take any damage from driving lean and despite what the two-stroke practice tells, i have not experienced the hotter engine from running lean. The AFR that has given me the hottest engine has been a stoich mixture of around 14,7, because this is when most energy is taken from the fuel and made into brute force in the engine.
Even before adding my oil cooler, i have driven it up to 95 degrees celsius on the valve cover, i have driven it with mixtures from 10 to 20 (the limits of what my gague can show) and i have driven it with a mixture of 16 (lean, not very much power) on a hot summer day with 75-80 degrees on the valve cover. Also, i have driven it up to 12.500 rpm a couple of times and has once held it above 10.000 rpm for nearly 20 minutes straight..... No wonder my engine isn't as powerful as when it were new.... Haha!
But if you want to ignite such mixtures, an iridium spark plug is a must. :)

This being said, i have reground my valves 2 or 3 times in the engines lifetime. But other than that, the engine seems very hard to kill. And i'm doing my best, because i have a new naraku v.2 50cc cylinder kit waiting for the original to die. I have compared weight and appearance of Naraku versus the original and i suspect that the naraku might have higher silicum content (good) and possibly ceramic coating on the skirts for less wear against the cylinder.
First Kymco agility 50 (2008) 11.000+ km (dead)
Second kymco agility 50 (2010) 20.000+ km. Project Fuel Injection. Stolen.
Kymco K-pipe 125 (2014) 7400 km.

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