Author Topic: Not looking to start a riot  (Read 30696 times)

zombie

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Re: Not looking to start a riot
« Reply #135 on: May 29, 2012, 03:38:35 AM »
I'm sorry, but you really think people choose to be gay? That of all of the things a person can choose to do, they would pick the one thing that would make them a social outcast and a target of ridicule (much like you expressed) and violence? Doesn't make any sense. Your description of a gay person as a flamer/drama queen sounds like a stereotype. What is this based off of? How many gay people do you actually know and have you expressed this idea with them? 

Are you also saying that heterosexuality is a life-style choice as well? If so does that mean that you could choice to be gay if you one day got bored of women?

-Wolf


What I mean is the type you described as being attention seekers due to inferiority issues is exactly what I meant. Just like the white kids acting like ethnic hood rats. Those are the ones. They choose their own "hardship", and lead the parade.
They are most of the reason this is even an issue. It never would have bothered me until it became political. Then I knew what ever party it is that doesn't approve of creating laws to allow/deny "Gay Marriage" is the one I agree with. (on this topic alone) And if laws need to be made to allow it... I vote to Not allow the making of those laws. It's more of a political statement on my behalf. If some group that never had my attention wishes to refer back to that time... All they have to do is whatever it was before they drew my attention to the subject. 
If that sounds in any way Bigoted I apologize for real. I never knew. It doesn't ring of bigot to me.
I think some others agree a stand has to be taken to preserve what we have, and let things work them selves out within that. More "Red Tape" isn't the cure. It only opens other doors. What "New Church" is going to apply for animal marital rights... The two are not intended to compare only to point out the path. Crumbling foundation...
Just everyone go about your business, and every thing will be fine. Otherwise "Arm the Scooters Boys!"   (I'll probably just ride this one solo...)
"They have nothing in their whole imperial arsenal that can break the spirit of one Irishman who doesn't want to be broken."   Bobby Sands...

zombie

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Re: Not looking to start a riot
« Reply #136 on: May 29, 2012, 03:40:59 AM »
Are you also saying that heterosexuality is a life-style choice as well? If so does that mean that you could choice to be gay if you one day got bored of women?

-Wolf

I forgot that part... Only if you're not lookin' to git Married!   Whatcha Wer'un...~
"They have nothing in their whole imperial arsenal that can break the spirit of one Irishman who doesn't want to be broken."   Bobby Sands...

ScooterWolf

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Re: Not looking to start a riot
« Reply #137 on: May 29, 2012, 02:26:18 PM »
Thanks for clearing up your stand, but I don't think someone acts gay out of an inferiority complex, or just to get attention, and are you saying all gays are this way? This sounds like a you're basing your opinion on a stereotype rather than on facts.

Politics affect everything. If you've never been discriminated against, marginalized or bullied because of who you are, look like, or believe in, you may not understand or form a sense of empathy. It is a shame that a law must be passed to allow gays to have the same rights as everyone, but it seems that is the only way to correct an injustice, much like the way a civil rights bill needed to be passed.

Your stance is based on the belief that a person is gay because they choose that life style (and again, no one chooses to be gay, no more than I choose to be Black), and therefore have brought on all the hardship themselves and don't deserve to have any law protect them. But, sorry, homosexuality is not a choice, or a mental illness. I'm far from a doctor and would not venture any scientific reason for why one person is gay and another is not, but I do believe that human sexuality is far, far more complex than we know, and that the notion that everyone fits into a square pegs doesn't apply anymore.

The political party -- and lets be frank here -- the Republicans, and their (neo) conservative, Angelical Christian/Tea Party base are against gay marriage because of their (base's) religious beliefs. Not wishing to isolate and turn them off they have no choice to not only be against gay marriage, but to use it as a political issue to strengthen their clout. Personally I find this reprehensible, and is the worst mixture of religion and politics. I also see this as no different than those who were against segregation and civil rights because they believed that African-Americans were 2nd (or lower) class citizens and should know and accept their place in society. This same stance seems to now apply to gays, one formed on misconceptions of gays, or on their religious beliefs.

I can respect a person's stance against gay marriage based on their religion (though I think such a notion is antiquated), but gay marriage doesn't mean that churches will be forced or allowed to have gay couples married in their churches. That was never implied by the potential law. The issue here is to have gay couples have all the rights and privileges apply to themselves and their partners that married couples have. It's as simple as that.

You said that you wanted to preserve what we have? What exactly is that? At one point in US history interracial couples were not allowed to marry by law. Would you be in support of that in order to preserve 'what we have'? Members of the status quo tend to forget that they are standing on the shoulders (or throats) of others. Things look great from where they are, but unless you have been disenfranchised or marginalized you may not know what it's like to not be 'on top'.

Zombie, I'm not asking you to radically change your opinion, but I think you should re-examine the facts it's based on. How will too much 'red tape' directly affect your life? How will it be different than the red tape used to pass new laws generated every day, week, month, and year by local, state and the Federal government? 

-Wolf

hippiebrian

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Re: Not looking to start a riot
« Reply #138 on: May 29, 2012, 03:01:08 PM »
I'm sorry, but you really think people choose to be gay? That of all of the things a person can choose to do, they would pick the one thing that would make them a social outcast and a target of ridicule (much like you expressed) and violence? Doesn't make any sense. Your description of a gay person as a flamer/drama queen sounds like a stereotype. What is this based off of? How many gay people do you actually know and have you expressed this idea with them? 

Are you also saying that heterosexuality is a life-style choice as well? If so does that mean that you could choice to be gay if you one day got bored of women?

-Wolf

Okay, if I have in front of me a piece of chocolate cake and a piece of strawberry cake, I have to make a choice because I want them both.  If there is a good looking woman and a good looking man in front of me, both willing to have sex with me, it will be the woman.  I do not have to choose, as I am not sexually attracted to men! 

Anyone


What I mean is the type you described as being attention seekers due to inferiority issues is exactly what I meant. Just like the white kids acting like ethnic hood rats. Those are the ones. They choose their own "hardship", and lead the parade.
They are most of the reason this is even an issue. It never would have bothered me until it became political. Then I knew what ever party it is that doesn't approve of creating laws to allow/deny "Gay Marriage" is the one I agree with. (on this topic alone) And if laws need to be made to allow it... I vote to Not allow the making of those laws. It's more of a political statement on my behalf. If some group that never had my attention wishes to refer back to that time... All they have to do is whatever it was before they drew my attention to the subject. 
If that sounds in any way Bigoted I apologize for real. I never knew. It doesn't ring of bigot to me.
I think some others agree a stand has to be taken to preserve what we have, and let things work them selves out within that. More "Red Tape" isn't the cure. It only opens other doors. What "New Church" is going to apply for animal marital rights... The two are not intended to compare only to point out the path. Crumbling foundation...
Just everyone go about your business, and every thing will be fine. Otherwise "Arm the Scooters Boys!"   (I'll probably just ride this one solo...)

hippiebrian

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Re: Not looking to start a riot
« Reply #139 on: May 29, 2012, 03:06:44 PM »
Set's try this again, something weird happened...

Okay, if I have a piece of chocolate cake and a piece of straberry cake in front of me, I have to make a choice because I really want them both.

If a beayutiful woman and a good looking man are in front of me, both willing to have sex with me, I have no choice.  I will be with the woman because I am not sexually attracted to men.  No choice in the matter, no interest, I do not see men that way.

If I were gay, obviously, the woman would be out of luck.  Again, not by choice but out of sexual attraction.

Anyone who sees sexual preference as a choice is fooling themselves.  If I had to make a choice that, by definition, would make me a bisexual.  If you see it as a choice, you may wnat to re-evaluate your sexual orientation...just sayin'.

zombie

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Re: Not looking to start a riot
« Reply #140 on: May 29, 2012, 09:56:30 PM »
Frig it. Let them all marry anything they want. I'll buy the beer.
Just saying enough is enough... I watch the Florida channel every day our legislature is in session. They pass laws in a willy nilly fashion. Meaning one person gets everything he/she wants, and the lessor knowns get nothing passed. It's bull pucks in my opinion.
All anyone has to do is elope. Go to the frigin Islands, and get married. What's the deal? I've been married by two judges, and a Rastafari minister. Who cares who approves.
My only rebuttal is on the civil rights issue vs gay marriage. The two really don't compare to me. Most of the world sees gay as wrong. That is just how Most people see it. I happen to agree. If puppy eaters want a new law then to heck with them too. Passing laws to strengthen someones concept is not the answer in my book. One of the two Hitlers tried that. It was no better then.
Sorry guys... Go parade in the street, and frolic in the grassy fields with your pet unicorns but don't try to force me to allow another un needed way of life into the mainstream. Stay in the closets.
"They have nothing in their whole imperial arsenal that can break the spirit of one Irishman who doesn't want to be broken."   Bobby Sands...

PassedByAScooter

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Re: Not looking to start a riot
« Reply #141 on: May 29, 2012, 10:23:01 PM »
 Passing laws to strengthen someones concept is not the answer in my book. One of the two Hitlers tried that. It was no better then.
Sorry guys. Stay in the closets.



Laws are made to allow moral and equal rights to all, as well as safety... at least that is how it is supposed to be. One thing I've noticed as I've grown older You cannot coerce a person to change political party, and you cannot convince someone to take an opposite stance on gay rights.
Fear-mongering is what is holding back equal rights to gays and lesbians. I pity the people who will not allow their fellow man and woman the same right to marry as themselves. It screams of nothing more than hierarchical nonsense. A gay or lesbian is neither better nor worse a human being than myself (a straight man).
Coming from Vermont, the first state to legalize same-sex marriage, I find the rest of the country to be stuck in a different era. Some Vermonters chanted "Take Vermont Forward", others "Take Vermont Back", but in the end the right thing happened. Divorce rates are lower in states that allow gay marriage (by almost 10%!), too, which would almost say that those states take marriage more seriously anyway :)

Regardless, I harbor no ill feelings for those that are against gay marriage as long as it never heads towards hate or violence. Within the next decade, gay marriages will be legal and we will be talking about how gay marriage was similar some ways to other equal rights struggles in the past.


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zombie

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Re: Not looking to start a riot
« Reply #142 on: May 29, 2012, 10:39:17 PM »
I do get it Passed. Hate/fear are nowhere in this for me. In High school I always hung around the Lesbian click. I MUCH preferred their company to the straight girls. They were for the most part more secure in who they were, and more open to any/all new ideas.
Most of my Male friends growing up were straight but a few were gay, and some didn't survive the 80/90's. The two friends I trust the MOST are both gay. One is a flamer named Andrew... He lives on Central park west NYC. Rich ass fagot is how he refers to himself, and the second lives out in the Hamptons. He is married with two kids, and recently Discovered/decided he was gay. I always told him he was.

 Hell now see what you did? You turned ME gay TOO! I've been hanging with Queens so much I must have gotten some on me. EWWW!

It's all political mumbo jumbo. Why has this never been an issue till now? Abortion was a biggie for years. Now this? EWWWWWW!
"They have nothing in their whole imperial arsenal that can break the spirit of one Irishman who doesn't want to be broken."   Bobby Sands...

Vivo

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Re: Not looking to start a riot
« Reply #143 on: May 30, 2012, 02:26:12 AM »
Laws are made to allow moral and equal rights to all, as well as safety... at least that is how it is supposed to be.

That was before (maybe), now laws are passed to get the most popularity votes and get a seat in government, gain power, wealth maybe, etc, etc.  Laws has nothing to do with morality, they just make things confusing. Morality is confusing as it is and laws make it worse. Maybe the answer to all these is not to involve laws with morality and vice versa.  The two just don't mix. What exact length of skirt a girl should wear is very difficult to decide on and the argument may take forever. Maybe the issue can be shifted to a different perspective, not on whether to allow or not same sex marriages but on their legal status after they get married. You know, legal rights, civil status, inheritance, etc. I think this is more of the issue to gays rather than the "marrying" part.










zombie

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Re: Not looking to start a riot
« Reply #144 on: May 30, 2012, 03:07:51 AM »
Exactly what Vivo said.
That is my point said in a different way. The rest is just discussion.
"They have nothing in their whole imperial arsenal that can break the spirit of one Irishman who doesn't want to be broken."   Bobby Sands...

Vivo

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Re: Not looking to start a riot
« Reply #145 on: May 30, 2012, 07:35:29 AM »
I can shorten it more...

Law is an applied discipline, while morality, being philosophical, is not an applied discipline. The two will never mix.   


streido

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Re: Not looking to start a riot
« Reply #146 on: May 30, 2012, 08:07:33 AM »
Maybe the issue can be shifted to a different perspective, not on whether to allow or not same sex marriages but on their legal status after they get married. You know, legal rights, civil status, inheritance, etc. I think this is more of the issue to gays rather than the "marrying" part.

I dont think that is the issue myself ??? Gay folk here can and do already get "married" only its called a civil partnership. They have the same rights etc as a "normal" married couple, they only difference is the name, and the fact they cant get married in a church or chapel etc. So Vivo that would make little difference as they are still treated as 2nd class citizens and still will not have the same rights as i do as a straight man. For years they fought for the right to marry, the gov tried to fob them off with civil partnership so they would go away, but they didnt. Now they want the same rights as i have and i dont really have a problem with that.

Personally i would rather the gov just came out and said "it is not our decision to make", because it isnt. Let each church or religion choose if they want to perform gay marriages or not, that way the progressive religions can allow it and the repressive ones can refuse and remain bigots and homophobes.

Vivos point about gaining power does seem logical too. Why is this only now becoming an issue in the states? Could it be that an election is coming up soon? Seems to me that does indeed look like what is happening or will happen. This matter should be a minor issue come voting day but. Romney WILL make a huge issue of it in his campaign, i have no doubt of that, thats all he does is negative campaigning. Why not tell everyone why they should vote for him instead of why not to vote for the other guy? Why cant he say why he himself is so good instead of showing how bad the other guy is? Maybe because his poilicies suck, he is not good for the country and he will use any and all tactics and means to gain the Whitehouse?

Btw before i get a republican backlash i should point out i am NOT American, im Scottish. I give my view as an independent observer watching from the sidelines. The Democrats may suck, but the republicans suck harder and better, imo. Now all you can do is vote for who is the least worst instead of who is best. Sad really.










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Vivo

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Re: Not looking to start a riot
« Reply #147 on: May 30, 2012, 08:21:28 AM »
Maybe they should first get the actual population of gays in the U.S., if it's too big to ignore, hmmm... maybe its about time they (Politicians) be pro-gay. Those are points!

There's one politician here who proposed a law on printing the license plate numbers on the rider's helmet. When bikers opposed and took to the streets, ALL 3 MILLION OF US, no law of such was passed. He did not know bikers were that many.  Stupid guy!





The Democrats may suck, but the republicans suck harder and better, imo.

No! Democrats spit, Republicans swallow... or is it the other way around....
« Last Edit: May 30, 2012, 08:24:23 AM by Vivo »

PassedByAScooter

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Re: Not looking to start a riot
« Reply #148 on: May 30, 2012, 11:23:44 AM »
I can shorten it more...

Law is an applied discipline, while morality, being philosophical, is not an applied discipline. The two will never mix.   



Last I knew, morals related to right or wrong behavior. So MORALLY, murder, theft, robbery, rape, pedophilia, etc, are all wrong. That's why there are laws.  So you see, there's nothing confusing about applying good morals to law.
Applying a law to the length of skirt, as you say, has nothing to do with morals for the common good. That's a personal standard. Personal standards are better policed in school and Amish societies, not in public!  ;D

The word morals can be a matter of interpretation, but if you look at its exact definition it applies perfectly to law. The trouble with morals is when you enter this gray area where the public is mixed on what is right or wrong. That's why this discussion is so popular. It's a good, healthy debate, though!


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Vivo

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Re: Not looking to start a riot
« Reply #149 on: May 30, 2012, 12:45:59 PM »
Last I knew, morals related to right or wrong behavior. So MORALLY, murder, theft, robbery, rape, pedophilia, etc, are all wrong. That's why there are laws.  So you see, there's nothing confusing about applying good morals to law.
Applying a law to the length of skirt, as you say, has nothing to do with morals for the common good. That's a personal standard. Personal standards are better policed in school and Amish societies, not in public!  ;D

The word morals can be a matter of interpretation, but if you look at its exact definition it applies perfectly to law. The trouble with morals is when you enter this gray area where the public is mixed on what is right or wrong. That's why this discussion is so popular. It's a good, healthy debate, though!

Who dictates what is right and what is wrong behavior? Huh? There are some parts of the world where rape is not immoral! did you know that? Rape is a requisite for marriage! See? for you rape is immoral... for them it's not. And they have no law that rape is unlawful.   Pedophilia? Yes! immoral to me but in other countries, children marry older men. That is their culture! Immoral? In America, they call murder... mercy killing!  Hmmm, nice choice of words.   The law states that 18 years old is the adult age. An 18 year old can work, buy and alcoholic drinks, etc.!!!  Yes? Right?    Hey man, this is an American Law! Wake up.!!! I am not an American, don't live in America and I don't give a sh**!  Just open minded.....  Btw, the length of skirt example was just an example in a Philosophical perspective....don't take it literally...  and for personal standard, I vote for no skirt!!!


The word morals can be a matter of interpretation, but if you look at its exact definition it applies perfectly to law.


Sir, can you give me the EXACT.... I mean.... EXACT....  definition of the word Morals?????   I'm excited to know!!!! because not even the greatest Philosophers can give the exact definition  of morals....


It's a good, healthy debate, though!

This is another debatable statement because in some parts of the globe, debates like these are not HEALTHY.  Some people may just stab you if you insist on your opinion... or burn a whole village just to make a point....etc.




« Last Edit: May 30, 2012, 01:07:42 PM by Vivo »

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