Author Topic: New variator aaaannddd issues arise....  (Read 10961 times)

zombie

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Re: New variator aaaannddd issues arise....
« Reply #45 on: July 16, 2012, 05:08:16 AM »
Not inefficient but cumbersome. I don't like the idea of all the need parts to control it. Or the amount of heat it charges the air with. Your oil takes a beating as well.
Turbos make some power for sure... I've just never been a fan (pun for sure) :P
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baddi

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Re: New variator aaaannddd issues arise....
« Reply #46 on: July 16, 2012, 05:40:33 AM »
Not inefficient but cumbersome. I don't like the idea of all the need parts to control it. Or the amount of heat it charges the air with. Your oil takes a beating as well.
Turbos make some power for sure... I've just never been a fan (pun for sure) :P

May be that it is 7:39 in the morning and i still havent slept, but that just blew me away!  ;D
First Kymco agility 50 (2008) 11.000+ km (dead)
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Vivo

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Re: New variator aaaannddd issues arise....
« Reply #47 on: July 16, 2012, 06:34:26 AM »
Not inefficient but cumbersome. I don't like the idea of all the need parts to control it. Or the amount of heat it charges the air with. Your oil takes a beating as well.
Turbos make some power for sure... I've just never been a fan (pun for sure) :P

turbos are just more complex. not a real bolt-on I suppose. not a project for a newbie. you have to understand everything from oil coking to variable geometries...

baddi

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Re: New variator aaaannddd issues arise....
« Reply #48 on: July 16, 2012, 12:18:32 PM »
turbos are just more complex. not a real bolt-on I suppose. not a project for a newbie. you have to understand everything from oil coking to variable geometries...

Well, the turbo i've seen are controlled by the air pressure in the exhaust to control the speed of the compressor, so if the speed becomes too high, the air will be bypassed. I dont really know about oil cocking or variable geometries, but i'm sure that i will learn it before it becomes relevant. ;)
First Kymco agility 50 (2008) 11.000+ km (dead)
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Vivo

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Re: New variator aaaannddd issues arise....
« Reply #49 on: July 16, 2012, 02:23:36 PM »
Well, the turbo i've seen are controlled by the air pressure in the exhaust to control the speed of the compressor, so if the speed becomes too high, the air will be bypassed. I dont really know about oil cocking or variable geometries, but i'm sure that i will learn it before it becomes relevant. ;)

It's not a compressor. a super charger has a compressor.  Turbos have turbines. Air being by-passed go thru the blow-off valve, a pressure release system....   but these are just the basics and tip of the ice berg...  Another problem of turbos is turbo lag. Some won't be effective until achieving a higher rpm. Turbo size, impeller material, design, roller bearing turbo, ball bearing turbo, compression ratio,  etc. are things to consider.  In short, the turbo system must be a perfect MATCH with your engine, otherwise.....  Good luck on your projects baddi....   for me, I'd prefer factory turboed cars rather than after market. For tuning, I'll go with supercharging, blueprinting, big bore, big valves, carbs, pipes, or ENGINE SWAP! Hot Roddin' baaaby!!!

baddi

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Re: New variator aaaannddd issues arise....
« Reply #50 on: July 16, 2012, 09:45:56 PM »
It's not a compressor. a super charger has a compressor.  Turbos have turbines. Air being by-passed go thru the blow-off valve, a pressure release system....   but these are just the basics and tip of the ice berg...  Another problem of turbos is turbo lag. Some won't be effective until achieving a higher rpm. Turbo size, impeller material, design, roller bearing turbo, ball bearing turbo, compression ratio,  etc. are things to consider.  In short, the turbo system must be a perfect MATCH with your engine, otherwise.....  Good luck on your projects baddi....   for me, I'd prefer factory turboed cars rather than after market. For tuning, I'll go with supercharging, blueprinting, big bore, big valves, carbs, pipes, or ENGINE SWAP! Hot Roddin' baaaby!!!

A turbine is one which creates movement into circulair force, so the fan on the exhaust side is called a turbine, and is then connected by a rod to the fan on the intake side, which is called a compressor. :p

And yeah i know. So to reduce turbo lag and make it efficient at the right rpm, this is the worlds smallest mass-produced turbo, and the moving parts are smaller to reduce inertia, which are the cause of turbo lag. ;)
But besides from engine swap and the big bore (which i'm very much against) i plan to do almost all of what you said for tuning. Fuel injection with 24 mm throttle body, Leo Vince exhaust, soon 4 valved cylinder head and the last thing i will do, if nothing gets in the way will be the turbocharger and other gearing and then i will register the Agility as a MC, so i can drive legally like this! :D
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Vivo

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Re: New variator aaaannddd issues arise....
« Reply #51 on: July 17, 2012, 02:56:27 AM »
Right on baddi. You need a very small turbo tho, and I don't know what amount of boost a small single cylinder can produce. Remember, you need a turbo which flows the same amount of air from the engine, otherwise, you'll loose power.  One alternative tho is a carbon dioxide turbo wherein a co2 gas tank provides for the pressure to spin the turbo, or and electric turbo perhaps. ;)

baddi

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Re: New variator aaaannddd issues arise....
« Reply #52 on: July 17, 2012, 10:35:49 AM »
Right on baddi. You need a very small turbo tho, and I don't know what amount of boost a small single cylinder can produce. Remember, you need a turbo which flows the same amount of air from the engine, otherwise, you'll loose power.  One alternative tho is a carbon dioxide turbo wherein a co2 gas tank provides for the pressure to spin the turbo, or and electric turbo perhaps. ;)

The co2 turbo would ruin my line of thought, as my thoughts are to optimise the engine and the co2 would be another source of energy (and pollution), and it would have to be refilled once in a while. :p
This is pt the strongest 50cc engine. :D


But i've seen a couple of other turbocharged scooters with engines from 50-80cc (big bore), and some of them had just taken a turbo from a car and mounted. How they run, i dunno, but a turbo like the RHB31 VZ21 should run better on a small engine than a car turbo. :)
First Kymco agility 50 (2008) 11.000+ km (dead)
Second kymco agility 50 (2010) 20.000+ km. Project Fuel Injection. Stolen.
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Vivo

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Re: New variator aaaannddd issues arise....
« Reply #53 on: July 18, 2012, 03:03:07 AM »
Nice baddi nice. ;) But for me, I'll rather turbo a car than a 50cc scooter. Would be a nice project tho.

zombie

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Re: New variator aaaannddd issues arise....
« Reply #54 on: July 18, 2012, 03:27:46 AM »
Rich from HGT did an SR factory with a turbo. I believe the unit that sparked the idea was a Zenith turbo made for a renault. It is a TINY unit, and puts out 7psi@5k rpm. I'm not SURE about the numbers but I believe he is near 100g's into the bike.
http://www.highgaintuning.com/aboutus.asp
I've messed with simple turbo set ups on carts, and one for a 400 Suzuki street bike. The Suzuki was a total failure. But in fairness it was ALL junk yard parts. Even the bike. It was a slow winter project. I'd rather Injection, and some good old fashioned porting.
"They have nothing in their whole imperial arsenal that can break the spirit of one Irishman who doesn't want to be broken."   Bobby Sands...

zombie

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Re: New variator aaaannddd issues arise....
« Reply #55 on: July 18, 2012, 03:29:56 AM »
The engine in that Pict is over 40 years old! I forget the guy, and what block it was but I believe it was near 44hp.
"They have nothing in their whole imperial arsenal that can break the spirit of one Irishman who doesn't want to be broken."   Bobby Sands...

Vivo

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Re: New variator aaaannddd issues arise....
« Reply #56 on: July 18, 2012, 03:35:06 AM »
I'd rather Injection, and some good old fashioned porting.


And supercharging... ;D




zombie

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Re: New variator aaaannddd issues arise....
« Reply #57 on: July 18, 2012, 03:39:11 AM »
Another 100G custom project. I think there is a youtube on that engine blowing it's clutch. No one makes one strong enough for it.
"They have nothing in their whole imperial arsenal that can break the spirit of one Irishman who doesn't want to be broken."   Bobby Sands...

Vivo

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Re: New variator aaaannddd issues arise....
« Reply #58 on: July 18, 2012, 03:52:12 AM »
Modifying an engine will really put holes in your pockets.   ;D

baddi

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Re: New variator aaaannddd issues arise....
« Reply #59 on: July 18, 2012, 11:33:59 PM »
After someone here mentioned electric superchargers, i have looked a little into it, and it seems like there are two reasons that they are not in use (BMW are working on implementing one on a car) :
- Cars, which use alot of air will have to have a supercharger that can deliver that air + the air for the pressure, and because of this, it will need a powerful electric motor to provide the power for it, and the electrical power has until now been a dealbreaker.

- Scooters and small engines often implement the technologies from the automobile industry when it becomes affordable, but unfortunately the sold electric superchargers looks like this (plastic components, a weak motor and bad design) when they should be more like this but just with an electric motor instead of the turbine. :p

As if the cheap design and effect of the "electronic superchargers" wasn't enough, they are usually just provided with an on/off swich so they cannot adjust their speed according to the engine.


Because of this, i have given myself a challange: I will make a prove of concept of an electric supercharger for a 50cc engine, so that Ecotrons might incorporate this in their EFI kit and making the ECU control the turbo. If this is possible, the turbo would be fully tunable and controlable where you would be able to set a wanted pressure at a given rpm/throttle and the ECU would control it to that pressure with the sensors which includes temp sensors and manifold air pressure sensor.

I do not know about the ECU and the ecotrons stuff, but i hope that he will solve the controlling device situation, if i can make an electrical charger, which can charge a small engine with only the electricity that is onboard. :)

To assist me, i have my brother, who studies physics so with our power combined, only money is in our way. Or the lack of it. ;D
First Kymco agility 50 (2008) 11.000+ km (dead)
Second kymco agility 50 (2010) 20.000+ km. Project Fuel Injection. Stolen.
Kymco K-pipe 125 (2014) 7400 km.

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