Author Topic: Help with Airsal BBK on 2003 People 50 2T  (Read 6632 times)

sparky_ppl

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 6
    • View Profile
Help with Airsal BBK on 2003 People 50 2T
« on: July 18, 2012, 09:38:22 PM »
So I ordered an Airsal BBK for a 2003 People 50 2T and went to install and noticed the head bolts were too long with this kit. I've had a Malossi kit on this scooter with the same head bolts (People has M7x1x100mm bolts whereas ZX50 has M6x?x95mm bolts). The cylinder (jug) is the same height as the Malossi and stock plus the exhaust flange matches the People (different from ZX50) so I'm pretty sure the cylinder is correct. Measuring the thickness of the head where the head bolts pass through, the Airsal head is 5mm thinner than factory and Malossi. When trying to install, the bolts bottom out before making contact with the head.

I've searched high and low and haven't read of anyone needing to shorten the bolts to make the kit work but I went ahead and did it anyways. Threaded the bolts an extra 8-10mm and chopped off 5mm from the end and the head can be torqued down no problem.

The engine idles great but part throttle is pretty horrible: sputtering and inconsistent power. Wide open is hit or miss with performance. I haven't done any jetting as the scooter ran great with the Malossi kit and everything else the same setup (info below).

More Info:
Spark plugs are BR8HSA (new & properly gapped)
Tecnigas pipe NextR
K&N cone filter
Factory carb w/factory pilot & 95 main
Factory reed (good condition)

So my questions are:

Anyone else have to modify the bolts to make the head fit? I'm wondering if I have the correct head.
Does anyone know if the Airsal heads are different from ZX50 to People 50?
There are two base gaskets provided: thick and thin. Which should be used (or both)? I currently have the thicker one only.

Peters

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1582
  • In Glock I Trust
    • View Profile
Re: Help with Airsal BBK on 2003 People 50 2T
« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2012, 03:14:07 PM »
I have heard of having to space the head out a little with extra gaskets on those Airsal kits. Just what I think I read a while ago. Somebody else may have more info on it. Good luck  :)
*2010 People 50 2t with 70cc kit and more
*2001 ZX-50 beater

zombie

  • You never know do ya!
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13870
  • Close enough to get the idea!
    • View Profile
Re: Help with Airsal BBK on 2003 People 50 2T
« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2012, 02:41:15 AM »
I'm confused on why the ZX/Peop are in the same post... The Airsal is a pain in the ass. The head is thinner. It is nothing you did. The base gaskets are there to set the Squish band. It is supposed to be between .8-1.0mm. I've read alot of posts with the same issue, and you did the correct thing. The jetting WILL need to be changed due to the different porting in the jug. I'd set the squish first, and get the jetting right after.
"They have nothing in their whole imperial arsenal that can break the spirit of one Irishman who doesn't want to be broken."   Bobby Sands...

sparky_ppl

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 6
    • View Profile
Re: Help with Airsal BBK on 2003 People 50 2T
« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2012, 02:46:44 AM »
Update:

I checked the squish gap with the thicker gasket (0.030" thick) and the head gasket (0.020" thick) using 0.062" solder. With these gaskets installed, it didn't even touch the solder. I swapped the base gasket for the thinner one (0.020" thick), torqued the head and found that the solder would just barely get touched maybe 0.060" thick. Removed the head gasket and got about 0.047" thick solder. Removed the base gasket too and got 0.041" thick solder (1.05mm).

It appears now that the Airsal kits aren't machined as precise as needed and some material needs to be removed. The question now is where this material should be removed from: top of the cylinder or the bottom of the head? From the measurements above, I probably need to remove 50 to 60 thousandths. Thank you Airsal!

I did take it for a drive with no gaskets and it felt like a 70cc scooter should but still needs some carb tuning so that's encouraging. It appears to be just a matter of getting this squish band correct to get back on the road.

zombie

  • You never know do ya!
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13870
  • Close enough to get the idea!
    • View Profile
Re: Help with Airsal BBK on 2003 People 50 2T
« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2012, 03:18:51 AM »
I just went thru the same deal with a polini...You really have to measure the top of the ports to the top of the cylinder to see where your timing will be. That will determine which side to cut. The safe bet would be cutting the base but you may get Much better performance by cutting the top. Here's the kicker... You may have to mill the head instead. Use any of the gaskets, including a piece of plain paper if you have to as well as no base gasket, and find the set up that gets all the ports completely open at BDC. That is the most important step. Then measure the top to the port roofs to determine if they are going to be alright. You need the Exh to be between 28-24mm to the top/transfers between 35-30mm, and boost to be a little higher than the transfers. about 1-2mm. These are just base line numbers. The less distance the higher the powerband. If your numbers are close post them up, and figure what/where to cut.
"They have nothing in their whole imperial arsenal that can break the spirit of one Irishman who doesn't want to be broken."   Bobby Sands...

Peters

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1582
  • In Glock I Trust
    • View Profile
Re: Help with Airsal BBK on 2003 People 50 2T
« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2012, 03:25:11 AM »
I just went thru the same deal with a polini...You really have to measure the top of the ports to the top of the cylinder to see where your timing will be. That will determine which side to cut. The safe bet would be cutting the base but you may get Much better performance by cutting the top. Here's the kicker... You may have to mill the head instead. Use any of the gaskets, including a piece of plain paper if you have to as well as no base gasket, and find the set up that gets all the ports completely open at BDC. That is the most important step. Then measure the top to the port roofs to determine if they are going to be alright. You need the Exh to be between 28-24mm to the top/transfers between 35-30mm, and boost to be a little higher than the transfers. about 1-2mm. These are just base line numbers. The less distance the higher the powerband. If your numbers are close post them up, and figure what/where to cut.
Copy, paste, save to hard drive. Zombie, you're the sh**!
*2010 People 50 2t with 70cc kit and more
*2001 ZX-50 beater

zombie

  • You never know do ya!
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13870
  • Close enough to get the idea!
    • View Profile
Re: Help with Airsal BBK on 2003 People 50 2T
« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2012, 03:30:46 AM »
I love this stuff. The more I learn the better it gets.
"They have nothing in their whole imperial arsenal that can break the spirit of one Irishman who doesn't want to be broken."   Bobby Sands...

sparky_ppl

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 6
    • View Profile
Re: Help with Airsal BBK on 2003 People 50 2T
« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2012, 07:30:00 PM »
Update #2

Pictures for reference: http://imgur.com/a/QKXJs

Did some measurements for port timings and checked for ports being open @ BDC. With the piston at BDC all ports were fully open with the exception of the 12o'clock port (assuming exhaust is 6o'clock from top view). I measured from the top of cylinder to 12o'clock port @ 1.847" (46.91mm) and top of head to 10o,clock port @1.686" (42.82mm). Difference is 0.161" (4.09mm) and the distance from the top edge of the piston ring to the top corner of the piston is 0.10" (2.54mm) which tells me at best the piston ring is only beginning to touch the bottom edge of the 12o'clock port. These were all taken with the thinner gasket (0.020" thick) installed.

The distance from the top of the cylinder to the top of the exhaust port is 0.955" (24.3mm) and top of cylinder to transfer ports is 1.305" (33.15mm) so those are within spec.

Question here is does this 12 o'clock port need to be fully exposed like the others? Stacking gaskets could fix this but with the squish gap already so large and the rest of the cylinder within spec, I'd have to mill the head so much that the edges of the combustion chamber portion would be flat. Won't that defeat the purpose of the squish band?

Another option is the Malossi head I have. It could be milled down but the edges of the combustion chamber would still be flat. The groove in that head for the o ring is 0.050" deep and the slight lip that surrounds the combustion chamber is 0.015" so whatever it is milled down wuold have to be in addition to that. The advantage of the Malossi head is that the spark plug sits a little farther from the piston than the Airsal head. The distance from the head surface to the spark plug ground strip is 0.173" on the Malossi head vs 0.097" on the Airsal. The piston protrudes past the head gasket approx 0.01 to 0.02" @TDC so if I were to remove 0.050" from the Airsal head that would leave a 0.02" to 0.03" gap from piston to spark plug.

Seems to me the error is more in the piston than anything else. if the distance from wrist pin to top of piston were greater, all problems would go away.

zombie

  • You never know do ya!
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13870
  • Close enough to get the idea!
    • View Profile
Re: Help with Airsal BBK on 2003 People 50 2T
« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2012, 07:12:32 AM »
You have done your homework, and get an A+!  Most tuners will agree that the rings are the deciding factor as far as BDC sealing is concerned so if the boost port is only covered by the edge of the piston you are fine. The Airsal head is higher compression so it should make more power. That is the one I would choose. You will be changing the geometry of the combustion chamber by milling the edge off but in a good way. You will increase the squish band into the Cyl. adding a higher velocity to the flame front, and making more power. The Head is the way I would go. Your Cyl/piston look fine. If you are concerned about the plug/piston clearance, either add a second seal ring to the plug, or switch to an HS plug... BR9HS (ngk). These have shorter electrodes, and with a modified head they should work just as well. 
"They have nothing in their whole imperial arsenal that can break the spirit of one Irishman who doesn't want to be broken."   Bobby Sands...

Areomyst

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 319
  • Scootin' America!
    • View Profile
    • American Scooter Forum - Scooter Invasion
Re: Help with Airsal BBK on 2003 People 50 2T
« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2012, 07:24:17 PM »
With the Airsal kit I always throw out the cylinder bolts because they don't work.  I use the studs and nuts from a Minarelli engine.  My Super 9 is the same way.  My People still has the stock top end, so still has the bolts. :)  I think you should use the studs, or put washers at the head of the bolt.  Even with shortening the bolts, I have had problems with running out of thread, and the cylinder studs work much better.

The "12 o clock" port is the boost port.  The exhaust port is flanked by the primary transfers, then there's the secondary transfers, and finally the boost port.

Airsal heads on the Kymco AC horizontal engines are the same as the Airsal heads for the Minarelli.  They will interchange.  The ZX head is completely different, and will not work.

If you machine the cylinder, it will have to be machined at the base, not the deck or the nicasil plating will be damaged.  It's safer to do as zombie suggests, and machine the head.  You will of course still need to rectify the bolt length issue.

The kit installed as-is performs nicely enough for street use, but you will see a noticable difference with proper squish.  When changing the head though, you're also going to change your compression ratio.  I always measure the combustion chamber volume with a graduated burette to figure out what octane fuel I can get away with. 

~Josh
« Last Edit: July 24, 2012, 07:30:04 PM by Areomyst »
www.scooterinvasion.net - Tech help, repairs & tuning.

sparky_ppl

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 6
    • View Profile
Re: Help with Airsal BBK on 2003 People 50 2T
« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2012, 10:27:34 PM »
The only reason ZX50 was mentioned was when I first found the difference in bolt length and saw the ZX50 head bolts were 5mm shorter which led me to think I got the wrong Airsal head and that isn't the case.

My fear with machining the head that there is no lip around the combustion chamber to remove material. If it is shaved down, I will lose some of the angled portion of the combustion chamber (see illustrations: http://imgur.com/a/YITW5). This would create a wedge shape opening outward away from the center. Any thoughts on this?

I can pull the head then bottom out the head bolts in the crankcase to ensure the are not bottoming out while being torqued down, haven't done that. I do like the studs though, going to order those tonight.

zombie

  • You never know do ya!
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13870
  • Close enough to get the idea!
    • View Profile
Re: Help with Airsal BBK on 2003 People 50 2T
« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2012, 11:57:04 PM »
Nice work on the diagram. I love that stuff, and wish I could do it. I see your concern, and would suggest simply machining the angle back in. That should be a very simple job, and can actually be done on a drill press using a template, and emory paper if a mill/lathe is not easy to get to. Keep in mind the compressed head gasket thickness, and shoot for 0.8-1mm squish.
"They have nothing in their whole imperial arsenal that can break the spirit of one Irishman who doesn't want to be broken."   Bobby Sands...

Areomyst

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 319
  • Scootin' America!
    • View Profile
    • American Scooter Forum - Scooter Invasion
Re: Help with Airsal BBK on 2003 People 50 2T
« Reply #12 on: July 26, 2012, 04:30:09 AM »
Though it's not as easy as machining the head, my personal preference is to machine the base of the cylinder.  This will lower your port timings, but will keep the positive squish angle of your cylinder head in check. 

For the purpose of street use, you will notice power increase enough to justify bolting it on as-is without the machine work. 

What is your goal with this scooter?  That is one thing that's important when deciding your direction in tuning.  Deciding what you actually want in the end can save a lot of headache. 

If you liked your bike before, but just want some extra power, install the kit and go with it.  If you want to squeeze every last drop out, measure the port timings precisely, make note of them, machine the base of the cylinder (which will lower the port timings) then if you so choose you can raise the ports back up to where they were, but with an Airsal that may not be a good choice (mine had 144 degrees transfer duration!).  Better to concentrate on the angles of the transfers.  Doing this type of porting is going to require a few special tools from http://www.ccspecialtytool.com/ or similar if you don't already have them.  I apologize if this is already information that you know.  You will spend several times more money on the tools, machine work, etc. than you did on the cylinder to begin with.  Such is the curse of in-depth 2-stroke tuning.

The head is cheaper and requires little fixturing to hold in a lathe - just a mandrel.  The cylinder requires an expanding mandrel that's quite a bit larger.  It's easier to machine the head, for sure  - you just have to make sure you keep that compression ratio in check.  Several people caution that running higher than 12:1 on pump gas will cause detonation.  I have run higher on some engines with 93 octane, but generally speaking I think you should keep it at or lower than 12:1.

This is a video I made on how I set up a degree wheel:


After you find true top dead center, you can align the piston to TDC with a thin coating of grease around the rings.  Then you can fill the cylinder through the spark plug hole with liquid poured from a graduated burette.  You can fill to the bottom of the plug hole and call that the "combustion chamber volume" or you can be even more precise, and fill to the top of the plug hole and subtract the spark plug's displacement.  For general purposes that aren't "on the edge" (which most Airsal cylinders are not) filling to the bottom of the thread should suffice for assuring you the combustion chamber volume's value.

After you get the combustion chamber's volume figured, you can get compression ratio by adding combustion chamber volume (CCV) to cylinder volume (CV) and then dividing the result by the combustion chamber volume.  So CCV+CV / CCV.  If I measure the CCV at 5cc's and the engine displaces 50cc I add the two together and get 55cc, then divide by the CCV (5cc) to get 11:1 compression ratio.

Instead of doing all of this, I think you should switch your exhaust from the Next-R to the Tecnigas RSII.  You will notice a good performance increase. :)  Doing all of the above is fine and great (seriously) but without a good pipe to support the cylinder, it's not quite pointless, but close enough to it.  I am no longer a fan of Tecnigas exhausts myself.  The quality is just not what they used to be.  I use mostly Leo Vince for street use.  They do not rev as high as the Tecnigas, but they are by far better build quality.  One of these days, I will dyno the difference between them and share the results.

Do make sure to either fix up your cylinder bolts (sounds like you may have done that already?) or install the Minarelli cylinder studs so that you don't go through a bunch of head gaskets.

I would post more, but it's after midnight, and I'm quite exhausted.  It's been a long day. :)  Forgive me if I don't check in to Kymcoforum as often as I used to.  I'm tied up a lot with my own site, work, family life, etc.

~Josh
www.scooterinvasion.net - Tech help, repairs & tuning.

Areomyst

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 319
  • Scootin' America!
    • View Profile
    • American Scooter Forum - Scooter Invasion
Re: Help with Airsal BBK on 2003 People 50 2T
« Reply #13 on: July 26, 2012, 04:34:37 AM »
I also noticed you're running a stock carb, with 95 jet.  Is your needle shimmed, or is it stock?  You may need to adjust your needle to get a little better throttle response in the midrange.  Idealy with the rest of your setup you would switch to a Dellorto or something.

Why did you take the Malossi cylinder off?

~Josh
www.scooterinvasion.net - Tech help, repairs & tuning.

zombie

  • You never know do ya!
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13870
  • Close enough to get the idea!
    • View Profile
Re: Help with Airsal BBK on 2003 People 50 2T
« Reply #14 on: July 26, 2012, 06:41:16 AM »
 :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o Who was that masked man???????
"They have nothing in their whole imperial arsenal that can break the spirit of one Irishman who doesn't want to be broken."   Bobby Sands...

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function split()