Rebuilding engine

[zombie]

There is enough hatred around this subject already. I simply don't understand how there can be an opposing point of view on this. Maybe Italy will do better ruling the Bronx.

[streido]

Propaganda works wonders and the UK and US gov's are masters at it, they always have been, bit like the Third Reich were, but without the moustache.........

[The Rookie]

In fact Oreland ahould never have been oartitioned at all in the 1st place,

As for IRA not wearing uniform....they were a resistance army. The French resistance in WW2 wore no uniform yet we dont condemn them, we applaud them for resisting the invading forces and trying to win back their nation. The SAS and undercover army and police wore no uniform either. You cant have a resistance army if you broadcast that you are resistance, cant work if your up against a superpower type nation with better means, money, power, wealth and numbers than you have, you could never win.

First point I've already agreed with, but what was done was done, then giving the whole of Ireland the vote would go against UN guidelines on self determination, also the carnage that was likley to be foisted on the Protestants is easily imaginable (for understandable reasons in some cases), remember the British Army was there originally to protect the Catholics from the Protestant majority in the North.

And the French resistance were shot......if you claim to be fighting a war and want to be POW's under the Geneva convention, you have to take the rough with the smooth, likewise you can't be two faced like Zombie and want protection under the Geneva convention (though he's not defined what part as the part he's suggesting doesn't exist)  yet ignore other international law as being inconveniant.

Zombie you are clearly very ignorant of a lot of the facts and suggest you actually start finding out the truth before mouthing off about stuff you clearly have no idea about at all, if your view stays the same then fine, but at least it will be based on fact not some myth passed on and enhanced to the point that what you've been stating as fact bears less resemblance to the truth than many of the produce of the brothers Grimm!
Perhaps Zombie will tell us when he's going to leave his home to the native Americans and get the hell out?

[Vivo]

There is enough hatred around this subject already. I simply don't understand how there can be an opposing point of view on this.

Wasnt me.....

[zombie]

Today would suit me fine. Perhaps 3 days after the third Friday in November. I'll let you know if I need anything for the trip. Thanx...
While I couldn't name a place or fit a time to an event I clearly don't give a rats ass about the details. This is a moral issue. Not knowing what the part number is on an air filter has nothing to do with what it does or how it works. I know a wrong has been done, and mis guided people (like you) have no concern for the people involved in these actions. My guess would be you were/are involved in some sort of police/military/had you dog killed by the IRA. I can tell you are one of those type aA people that just need to be humbled enough to see when a true crime is committed. The Limey's can have NI... Just not while it's attached to Ireland. Are you related to 008?
Now if that's not an educated response to some Blah Blah stuff...

[The Rookie]

A more reasoned responce.

I try and see both sides of an argument, yes horrendous crimes have been commited against the Irish, but in an era and at a time when such things were considered normal and acceptable practice (like the taking of native American lands by the white settlers, very analagous), but it's impossible to re-write history, at any given point you have to start with what you have at that here and now.

Seperating Ireland in the first place was wrong, but it happened, so 40 odd years later there was no point trying to say it shouldn't have happened, besides had it been reunited then it would now be totally bankrupt as the republic owes a LOT of money (much to the British government who baled them out).

The British army did first move back (in force) into NI to protect the catholics, that is fact, Bloody Sunday was a stupid F'up and dreadful, it was the wrong people (the para's) with the wrong mindset and tranining (for war) in the wrong place doing the wrong job, but it happened, the many years of violence from BOTH SIDES was wrong, the moderates on both sides of the divide during this time outnumbered the pro violence (look at voting history), I strongly dislike the Protestant marches as they are a real 'ram it down the throat' provocation and childish in the extreme, however the fact is that once the violence ended (on both sides) the lot of everyone has improved immensely, NI is now run as a pseudo autonomous state which while making neither side 100% happy, at least makes both sides happier.

Also remember that during the troubles the majority of organised crime in the area was controlled by the paramilitary's on both sides, prostitution, drugs, smuggling (tobacco and alcohol), protection, hardly (either side) great freedom fighters for their people!

That the IRA were in league with that bastion of world peace Gadhafi who the US also loved to hate seems strange.

I would remind you who's government brokered the Good Friday agreement that started the 'outbreak of peace'.

[streido]

That the IRA were in league with that bastion of world peace Gadhafi who the US also loved to hate seems strange.

JUst sayin......

Tony B.Liar was a great guy,for a couple of years,then he seemed to have some kinda brain disorder and went insane destroying both the Labour party and the UK's standing around the world. He dragged this countrydown to the same level of hatred around the world as the US had. His dad was a Tory so i even suspect he was a plant, or at the very least an ego-maniac.Maybe it was just his Mid-Life crisis,same as when he converted to Catholism. I want to vomit everytime i see him now,just glad i never ever voted for him so my concience is clear on that one, i was out of the country when he got elected that 1st time.

True he had the balls to at least talk to the IRA in public,but these talks had gone on since almost the start of the troubles behind closed doors between the IRA/Sinn Fein and the British Gov, even under Thatcher. Theay are all just in it for themselves these days to get whatever they can from all us assholes on the ground.

[The Rookie]

Hey no love for Bliar either!  Especially the manipulation for the release of Al Magrahi via the Scottish parliament....

Brown was an idiot, still not sure about Cameron!

I dislike and distrust proffesional politicians, let them do 'something' first.

Of course gov'ts were talking to IRA/SF, would have been stupid not to, no-one was winning anything during the troubles, not everything was resolved by the GFA, a lot was improving from a long way before that (circa 1986 under Thatcher, I remember the anti-campaigns against any talks) in terms of moving towards a settlement, yes it took a long time, but that was when it started.

[zombie]

A more reasoned responce.

I try and see both sides of an argument, yes horrendous crimes have been commited against the Irish, but in an era and at a time when such things were considered normal and acceptable practice (like the taking of native American lands by the white settlers, very analagous), but it's impossible to re-write history, at any given point you have to start with what you have at that here and now.

Seperating Ireland in the first place was wrong, but it happened, so 40 odd years later there was no point trying to say it shouldn't have happened, besides had it been reunited then it would now be totally bankrupt as the republic owes a LOT of money (much to the British government who baled them out).

The British army did first move back (in force) into NI to protect the catholics, that is fact, Bloody Sunday was a stupid F'up and dreadful, it was the wrong people (the para's) with the wrong mindset and tranining (for war) in the wrong place doing the wrong job, but it happened, the many years of violence from BOTH SIDES was wrong, the moderates on both sides of the divide during this time outnumbered the pro violence (look at voting history), I strongly dislike the Protestant marches as they are a real 'ram it down the throat' provocation and childish in the extreme, however the fact is that once the violence ended (on both sides) the lot of everyone has improved immensely, NI is now run as a pseudo autonomous state which while making neither side 100% happy, at least makes both sides happier.

Also remember that during the troubles the majority of organised crime in the area was controlled by the paramilitary's on both sides, prostitution, drugs, smuggling (tobacco and alcohol), protection, hardly (either side) great freedom fighters for their people!

That the IRA were in league with that bastion of world peace Gadhafi who the US also loved to hate seems strange.

I would remind you who's government brokered the Good Friday agreement that started the 'outbreak of peace'.

Finally a post I 100% agree with. It seems everything in there is the only way to look at it. Of course bad tactical decisions were made on both sides, and moneys to make actions did come from "less than perfect" sources. My entire reason for getting involved in this conversation was only to point out the Brtis do not/Did not belong there any more than they belonged on American soil (native). I've said it before... It's an antiquated regime that believes occupation entitles ownership. I'll see if I can find you an "IRA sponsor" book bag or bumper sticker.
If you need any help w/ the scoot just ask. That's why I'm here.

[streido]

So is it time for a big group hug now 

Or is that just gay 

 

I love this place. One minute we all want to murder one another and the next were all fine again 

So......scooters eh? Anyone like em? 

[zombie]

I'm burning my scoot as I post. I just found out British people have scooters. It's like my Timberland boots, and HillFiger clothes. Had to burn them too. Why does everyone take from the white man?

[The Rookie]

I think we're getting there, but Zombie can I SUGGEST you check
1/ Why the British army (strictly UK army actually as NI is not part of Britain but is part of the UK) went into NI in the first place, it was to protect the Catholics from the Protestants (you so dislike so should appreciate that)
2/ UN rules for self determination, once Ireland was divided it would be agaisnt international law to force the majority (protestants mostly, but does include some catholics) to leave the UK and become part of a foreign country (Eire), dividing Ireland was probably a bad idea in the first place, but I'd refer you to what happened in India after independance (with the 2 sides (Muslims and Hindus in that case) promptly slaughtering each other to the point the British army was asked to intervene and take control back by the new Indian president), so no guarentees that would have achieved anything either.

At least that way you have the facts when it comes to making up your mind, Streido and I have agreed to disagree based on at least the facts, but some of what you have said is so far from factually accurate as to be disturbing, I doubt it will fundamentaly change your mind but at least  you'll be able to seperate some truth from myth.

[zombie]

I understand your points. That does not change the injustice. I've compared the Bronx a few times so this time lets try Miami. 30 or so years ago there was a black professor that was beaten by cops. They were found not guilty of Police Brutality. Liberty City riots began. Now this is a predominately black area. Idi Amin's army did not step forward to protect the people of Miami from the rioting blacks because that would just be INSANE. Same w/ NI.
I understand it is not as simple as that. The principle is the same however. Idi had no business here any more than Margret had any business there.
Lets suppose the whole of Ireland was killing Protestants for whatever reason... that is a National affair. Turn it around for a moment... The Protestants are killing Catholics so the Brits decide to help the poor Catholics by occupying the country? Lets just say that was a GREAT favor, and the BEST thing that could ever happen. Why are they still there?
I really dont care about dates/times/names/events... When the party is over you don't go to sleep in the hosts bed. You go home.
This party has been over for what 45 years?
No ill will Rookie. It's not your fault you were born a Brit. If I were born in the UK I would most likely be spitting on those damn lazy Irish mutts myself. Drunken, tobacco smoking, singing, and dancing bastards. Who ever heard of living a simple life, and enjoying your family before going to work 60 hours a week at the Nuke Plant. You're right Rookie! Fu(k those lazy Irish bastards. Can I come live at your house till I get on my feet, and find a anti Irish group to join. It's about time someone rid the world of them.
Thanks for walking me thru my miss guided ways. Now if you would PLEASE go break anything on your scoot so I can stop worrying about what Irish bastard is going to sneak up, and put a bomb up my bum. I feel smarter already.

[The Rookie]

OK, just to try and address a few points....
When Eire was given independance (long overdue) from Britain, Northern Ireland existed in a mostly peaceful state as part of the UK for a number of years with a relatively small army contingent (much as you'd find as an average in any part of the rest of the UK - my Uncle served there in 1951 as part of a small garrison at a time when they could walk the streets normally), then Eire having settled and matured the nationalists decided (as is their right) that they wanted a Unified Ireland (I have no argument in them trying to achieve that by peaceful, democratic and legal means), trouble started to brew with the Protestants who did not, and who being in the Majority had the balance of power, the British Army did not occupy anywhere, they were sent to part of the soveriegn state as recognised by the UN to protect a minority from a majority in order to keep peace. No one has ever suggested that a referendum under UN guidelines on self determination would have had any other result than staying 'British' (strictly part of the UK which is "Great Britain and Northen Ireland").

After a while resentment grew in the catholic community and the more violent troubles started, but as the majority of the populace of NI wanted to be British (UN rules on self determination, you were keen on international law when you thought it helped you) so in no way could it be called an army of occupation like it HAD been when it was trying to force the whole of Ireland to stay part of the Empire at the turn on the Century.  The trouble is the emigrees at no point recognise that important distinction.

By the time Thatcher came to power the troubles were a full blown open conflict, she did try and open negotiations with both Eire and Sinn Fein (there was much debate whether she should or not in the UK at the time as both supported an armed struggle) so to blame everything on one PM who was in power for 12 years is rather selective.

There are also some anomolies, for example the Irish rugby team is drawn from both the republic and NI and hhas both catholic and Protestant players and always has had, while gaelic footbal has long been Catholic only and in some areas hostile to protestants who wanted to take part, meanwhile soccer is split between the Republic and NI, the NI team has both Catholic and Protestant players although for a while few Catholic, for info NI inhabitants can compete at the Olymipics for the GB or the republic.......funny how success in sport managed to bridge the problems for so long!

[zombie]

"my Uncle served there in 1951 as part of a small garrison at a time when they could walk the streets normally"

I think I knew that. Did those Irish bastards kill his dog too?

"There are also some anomolies, for example the Irish rugby team is drawn from both the republic and NI and hhas both catholic and Protestant players and always has had, while gaelic footbal has long been Catholic only and in some areas hostile to protestants who wanted to take part, meanwhile soccer is split between the Republic and NI, the NI team has both Catholic and Protestant players although for a while few Catholic, for info NI inhabitants can compete at the Olymipics for the GB or the republic.......funny how success in sport managed to bridge the problems for so long!

   Because no matter what these are GAMES, and the players are IRISH! Religion is not a nationality. The rest of the post bewilders me... The UN has NO dictate on national policy in ANY country. If they agree with me on making New Jersey a Hippie Farm then that makes it a hippie farm I guess. I'll have to see what connects I can make at the UN. They seem to agree with alot of dumb ass ideas. Maybe I can start a movement to occupy the UN building in N.Y. claiming it was Native soil, and they are an illegal occupant of foreign soil. I hope I sound as stupid as the rest of the argument for the U.K's "help".
I'm not calling you a dumb ass. You obviously can spell better than me. It's just a dumb ass fight you picked.
I used to date a girl "nanny" from the Mid-lands. This topic came up, and the attraction was ended right then, and there. I was 20 then. I'm 52 now. Think you're gonna change my mind?
Just to show I will never have hard feelings over this I got you an Ipad case. I figure a smart guy like you has to own an Ipad...
http://www.cafepress.com/+free_ireland_by_any_means_ipad_case,491933944